Pope's environmental encyclical: Climate Change a product of human selfishness

[Razgovory]

How is it easier to dodge a carbon tax on an end product like the gas pump for example.  I am asking for a friend.

how do you dodge sales tax at the gas pump?

You don't.  That's my point.  I am not sure why you think there is a good analogy with income tax.

Well... there is a way.  It's a bit convoluted though and involves a quite a bit of fraud.  The customer isn't dodging the tax, but a third party can by setting up dummy gas dealers.

[crazy canuck]

A noble goal but what if the means destroy the middle class economy?

How does that destroy something called a middle class economy?

When the price of gas at the pump goes up, the middle class stays home. When the Middle class stays home all facets of the economy suffers.

That didn't happen in BC when the carbon tax was imposed. 

[The Brain]

A noble goal but what if the means destroy the middle class economy?

How does that destroy something called a middle class economy?

When the price of gas at the pump goes up, the middle class stays home. When the Middle class stays home all facets of the economy suffers.

That didn't happen in BC when the carbon tax was imposed.

That was a long time ago though.

[crazy canuck]

A noble goal but what if the means destroy the middle class economy?

How does that destroy something called a middle class economy?

When the price of gas at the pump goes up, the middle class stays home. When the Middle class stays home all facets of the economy suffers.

That didn't happen in BC when the carbon tax was imposed.

That was a long time ago though.

So it has a good track record.

[Grey Fox]

Gas didn't go up?

[DGuller]

Joan, I'm pretty sure veep was getting at policies which harness economic incentives.

- increase electricity production by non fossile fuels and these states should then export, at fair price, their electricity to those who rely on fossile fuels.
- increase public transportation services in big cities, i.e., make them efficient to use instead of trying to screw the automobile driver so he would eventually adopt public transit
- go with the hammer on automobile manufacturers, since they require a bail out every now and then, force them to reduce the emissions of their vehicles.  Well, that's mostly done.
- rework the road system in major cities to avoid unnecessary congestion, wich is done to piss off auto drivers in the first place as a way to force them to use inefficient public transportation
- impose sanctions on goods from countries wich do not adhere to our environmental standards.  When the Chinese realize they can't outsource us the cost of their negligence, they'll start caring.

that's for the non extreme measures.  If you want extremes, a nuke or two on China, in the name of environmental protection, would rally the CdM of this world to the cause.

Are you sticking by your assessment, Yi?

[crazy canuck]

Gas didn't go up?

Gas did go up but the middle class didn't stay home and the economy didn't suffer.  So the evidence we have is that your prediction of what would occur is not accurate.

[Grey Fox]

Gas didn't go up?

Gas did go up but the middle class didn't stay home and the economy didn't suffer.  So the evidence we have is that your prediction of what would occur is not accurate.

In B.C., in the vancouver area. Where people are paying 1 000 000$ for shacks.

[crazy canuck]

Gas didn't go up?

Gas did go up but the middle class didn't stay home and the economy didn't suffer.  So the evidence we have is that your prediction of what would occur is not accurate.

In B.C., in the vancouver area. Where people are paying 1 000 000$ for shacks.

The carbon tax applied to the entire province.  And you are correct.  It didn't seem to have an adverse effect on property prices in Vancouver. 

[The Minsky Moment]

Why is a carbon tax easier to dodge than a cap on carbon emissions? 

Why is income tax easier to dogde than sales tax?

It depends on the income tax but typically because "income" is a complex concept that requires definition and also because for political reasons, income taxes as implemented tend to get very complex.  Notwithstanding those difficulties, most states do levy income taxes, often quite successfully.

Presumable, by the time you get into a carbon tax, there'll be thousands of exceptions, and big corporations will hire armies of lawyers, just like they do for their other taxes to try to find loopholes to exploit.

Possibly but that is the same problem that exists with various kinds of cap schemes, and indeed, as Martinus argued, with virtually any mandatory legislation.

[viper37]

You don't.

it's very easy to do.

[viper37]

Possibly but that is the same problem that exists with various kinds of cap schemes, and indeed, as Martinus argued, with virtually any mandatory legislation.

the tax will penalize everyone, but the credit trade will stimulate investment in green energy so that you would have people who are selling these credits because ther industry does not pollute at all, so that others can either pay the cost of their pollution, or find ways to optimize their process.

If you hike tax prices by 10cents a liter, you create an adverse effect on the economy because there will be no way to dodge that tax for the end consumers, businesses will send the cost to consumers, simply.  So, heating oil will be more expensive, travelling and transportation will be more expensive, wich in turn will make everything we consume of higher price.

And there's the psychological effect.  As soon as you pronounce the word tax, people with money try to find a way to dodge it.

If you create a sort of carbon market, then some people get creative to reduce their emissions instead of simply shifting the costs down to consumers because there is a competitive advantage for them to do so.

[Admiral Yi]

You dodge the gas tax by buying electric wheels, taking public trans, or riding a bike.

Same thing that would happen if gas producers had to buy emission permits.

[The Minsky Moment]

Exactly.

Economically there isn't much difference between a tax and a cap and trade scheme.  From the POV of a business, they both impose a cost.  Whether the cost can and will be passed onto consumers depends on the industry structure and the shape of demand curves, not whether you call it a "tax" or a "permit cost".   It's really the same thing.  The only difference is cap and trade targets quantity whereas the carbon tax acts directly on price.  The cap regimes makes sense if you really want to control quantity directly but you run the risk that crazy things can happen with price.  With the carbon tax you have more control over  the economic impact  but it may not reduce emissions by the amount desired.

[viper37]

Joan, I'm pretty sure veep was getting at policies which harness economic incentives.

- increase electricity production by non fossile fuels and these states should then export, at fair price, their electricity to those who rely on fossile fuels.
- increase public transportation services in big cities, i.e., make them efficient to use instead of trying to screw the automobile driver so he would eventually adopt public transit
- go with the hammer on automobile manufacturers, since they require a bail out every now and then, force them to reduce the emissions of their vehicles.  Well, that's mostly done.
- rework the road system in major cities to avoid unnecessary congestion, wich is done to piss off auto drivers in the first place as a way to force them to use inefficient public transportation
- impose sanctions on goods from countries wich do not adhere to our environmental standards.  When the Chinese realize they can't outsource us the cost of their negligence, they'll start caring.

that's for the non extreme measures.  If you want extremes, a nuke or two on China, in the name of environmental protection, would rally the CdM of this world to the cause.

Are you sticking by your assessment, Yi?

there's a difference between a credit system for greenhouse gas and how to reduce greenhouse gas.  We don't reduce our emissions by kneeling and praying.  Transporation and energy production are often regulated by the State.  I could have added "eliminate subsidies on oil production".  I fail to see how subsidizing a type of production over another is free market.