EU Immigration Crisis Megathread

[Syt]

http://www.nytimes.com/2015/09/13/world/europe/eastern-europe-migrant-refugee-crisis.html?smid=fb-nytimes&smtyp=cur

Eastern Bloc's Resistance to Refugees Highlights Europe's Cultural and Political Divisions

WARSAW — Even though the former Communist countries of Central and Eastern Europe have been asked to accept just a fraction of the refugees that Germany and other nations are taking, their fierce resistance now stands as the main impediment to a unified European response to the crisis.

Poland's new president, Andrzej Duda, has complained about "dictates" from the European Union to accept migrants flowing onto the Continent from the Middle East and Africa.

Slovakia's prime minister, Robert Fico, says his country will accept only Christian refugees as it would be "false solidarity" to force Muslims to settle in a country without a single mosque. Viktor Orban, Hungary's hard-line prime minister, calls the influx a "rebellion by illegal migrants" and pledges a new crackdown this week.

The discord has further unsettled a union already shaky from struggles over the euro and the Greek financial crisis and now facing a historic influx of people attracted by Europe's relative peace and prosperity.

When representatives of the European Union nations meet on Monday to take up a proposal for allocating refugees among them, Central and Eastern Europen nations are likely to be the most vocal opponents. Their stance — reflecting a mix of powerful far-right movements, nationalism, racial and religious prejudices as well as economic arguments that they are less able to afford to take in outsiders than their wealthier neighbors — is the latest evidence of the stubborn cultural and political divides that persist between East and West.

When joining the European Union — as the former Communist countries have done since 2004 — nations are asked to pledge support to a raft of so-called European values, including open markets, transparent government, respect for an independent media, open borders, cultural diversity, protection of minorities and a rejection of xenophobia.

But the reality is that the former Communist states have proved sluggish in actually absorbing many of these values and practicing them. Oligarchs, cronyism and endemic corruption remain a part of daily life in many of the countries, freedom of the press is in decline while rising nationalism and populist political movements have stirred anti-immigrant tensions.

"People must remember that Poland has been transitioning from communism for only 25 years," Lech Walesa, who led that country's independence movement, said in an interview. "Our salaries and houses are still smaller than those in the West. Many people here don't believe that they have anything to share with migrants. Especially that they see that migrants are often well-dressed, sometimes better than many Poles."

Few migrants, in fact, are particularly interested in settling in Eastern Europe, preferring to head to Germany or Scandinavia, where social welfare benefits are higher, employment opportunities greater and immigrant communities better established. In that sense, migrants are aligned with leaders in Eastern and Central European capitals, who frequently argue that the 28-member bloc should focus first on securing its borders and figuring out a way to end the war in Syria before talking about mandatory quotas for accepting refugees.

But as often as not, the political discourse in these countries has quickly moved toward a wariness of accepting racial and religious diversity.

"This refugee flow has outraged the right wing," said Kenneth Roth, executive director of Human Rights Watch. "If you scratch the surface, why are they so upset? It's not about jobs or the ability to manage them or social welfare. What it is really about is that they are Muslim."

Unlike countries in Western Europe, which have long histories of accepting immigrants from diverse cultures, the former Communist states tend to be highly homogeneous. Poland, for instance, is 98 percent white and 94 percent Catholic.

"And the countries that have very little diversity are some of the most virulently against refugees," said Andrew Stroehlein, European media director for Human Rights Watch.

Even mainstream political leaders eager for closer ties to Brussels, the European Union's headquarters, feel pressure to appeal to this growing nationalist wave.

By toughening up their rhetoric and showing a strong hand toward the Roma minority, facing down the E.U. and refusing a common solution to the refugee crisis, they are trying to outbid the far right and keep the traditional political parties in power," said Zuzana Kusá, a senior research fellow at the Institute for Sociology of the Slovak Academy of Sciences.

There is also widespread disappointment with the pace of economic change since communism's fall, and a sense that the countries are too poor to offer substantial support to immigrants.

"There is a long history of victimization in our region," said Csaba Szaló, a professor of sociology at Masaryk University in Brno. "We are the ones who have always been victims of injustice, the ones who have suffered. And now there is somebody trying to grab that status. People find it very difficult to accept that somebody might suffer more than us."

While rising xenophobia is playing a role, there are other factors behind the East-West divide, said Marcin Zaborowski, executive vice president at the Center for European Policy Analysis and head of its Warsaw office.

"The primary reason for this difference in attitude is that we come from a region where the tradition of accepting culturally different refugees is very weak," he said. "And now there is this wave of refugees from another continent that has no precedent, so people don't know what to think."

Most of the countries, like Poland, have "no proper infrastructure in place to deal with such cultural assimilation" and little appetite to spend precious resources building one, Mr. Zaborowski said.

As for the region's seeming indifference to the migrants' plight, that is partly because unlike France, Britain and Germany, the former Communist states have no history of colonialism, he said.

"The attitude is: We didn't meddle in these countries that are now sending the refugees, like other nations did, and so we have no sense of guilt about our obligation to deal with them," Mr. Zaborowski said.

And all of these attitudes blend together into a common aversion to being told what to do by Brussels.

In Hungary, Mr. Orban has taken a particularly uncompromising approach, demanding more help from Brussels in dealing with the tens of thousands who continue to enter his country while insisting that Hungary is under no obligation to endanger its traditional Christian values by accepting large numbers of Muslims.

[Liep]

Problems in Germany?

‏

@PolizeiMuenchen
13.09.2015 / 12:46 Uhr: Wer zu Hause noch Kekse hat und helfen möchte...bitte für die #Flüchtlinge zum Hbf #München bringen.

[Malicious Intent]

Munich is the main entry point for refugees. The city is overwhelmed by the numbers because the distribution to other cities and regions is simply not fast enough at the moment.

[Queequeg]

So does anyone here think this will seem like a smart move in 5 years?

[Josquius]

October fest will be interesting this year

[Zanza]

October fest will be interesting this year

Because of the traffic chaos in Munich central station? I doubt you'll notice any other difference to other years.

[Malicious Intent]

Looks like we will introduce border controls again, though for now limited to the border with Austria.

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-34239674

[Martinus]

http://www.nytimes.com/2015/09/13/world/europe/eastern-europe-migrant-refugee-crisis.html?smid=fb-nytimes&smtyp=cur

Eastern Bloc's Resistance to Refugees Highlights Europe's Cultural and Political Divisions

WARSAW — Even though the former Communist countries of Central and Eastern Europe have been asked to accept just a fraction of the refugees that Germany and other nations are taking, their fierce resistance now stands as the main impediment to a unified European response to the crisis.

Poland's new president, Andrzej Duda, has complained about "dictates" from the European Union to accept migrants flowing onto the Continent from the Middle East and Africa.

Slovakia's prime minister, Robert Fico, says his country will accept only Christian refugees as it would be "false solidarity" to force Muslims to settle in a country without a single mosque. Viktor Orban, Hungary's hard-line prime minister, calls the influx a "rebellion by illegal migrants" and pledges a new crackdown this week.

The discord has further unsettled a union already shaky from struggles over the euro and the Greek financial crisis and now facing a historic influx of people attracted by Europe's relative peace and prosperity.

When representatives of the European Union nations meet on Monday to take up a proposal for allocating refugees among them, Central and Eastern Europen nations are likely to be the most vocal opponents. Their stance — reflecting a mix of powerful far-right movements, nationalism, racial and religious prejudices as well as economic arguments that they are less able to afford to take in outsiders than their wealthier neighbors — is the latest evidence of the stubborn cultural and political divides that persist between East and West.

When joining the European Union — as the former Communist countries have done since 2004 — nations are asked to pledge support to a raft of so-called European values, including open markets, transparent government, respect for an independent media, open borders, cultural diversity, protection of minorities and a rejection of xenophobia.

But the reality is that the former Communist states have proved sluggish in actually absorbing many of these values and practicing them. Oligarchs, cronyism and endemic corruption remain a part of daily life in many of the countries, freedom of the press is in decline while rising nationalism and populist political movements have stirred anti-immigrant tensions.

"People must remember that Poland has been transitioning from communism for only 25 years," Lech Walesa, who led that country's independence movement, said in an interview. "Our salaries and houses are still smaller than those in the West. Many people here don't believe that they have anything to share with migrants. Especially that they see that migrants are often well-dressed, sometimes better than many Poles."

Few migrants, in fact, are particularly interested in settling in Eastern Europe, preferring to head to Germany or Scandinavia, where social welfare benefits are higher, employment opportunities greater and immigrant communities better established. In that sense, migrants are aligned with leaders in Eastern and Central European capitals, who frequently argue that the 28-member bloc should focus first on securing its borders and figuring out a way to end the war in Syria before talking about mandatory quotas for accepting refugees.

But as often as not, the political discourse in these countries has quickly moved toward a wariness of accepting racial and religious diversity.

"This refugee flow has outraged the right wing," said Kenneth Roth, executive director of Human Rights Watch. "If you scratch the surface, why are they so upset? It's not about jobs or the ability to manage them or social welfare. What it is really about is that they are Muslim."

Unlike countries in Western Europe, which have long histories of accepting immigrants from diverse cultures, the former Communist states tend to be highly homogeneous. Poland, for instance, is 98 percent white and 94 percent Catholic.

"And the countries that have very little diversity are some of the most virulently against refugees," said Andrew Stroehlein, European media director for Human Rights Watch.

Even mainstream political leaders eager for closer ties to Brussels, the European Union's headquarters, feel pressure to appeal to this growing nationalist wave.

By toughening up their rhetoric and showing a strong hand toward the Roma minority, facing down the E.U. and refusing a common solution to the refugee crisis, they are trying to outbid the far right and keep the traditional political parties in power," said Zuzana Kusá, a senior research fellow at the Institute for Sociology of the Slovak Academy of Sciences.

There is also widespread disappointment with the pace of economic change since communism's fall, and a sense that the countries are too poor to offer substantial support to immigrants.

"There is a long history of victimization in our region," said Csaba Szaló, a professor of sociology at Masaryk University in Brno. "We are the ones who have always been victims of injustice, the ones who have suffered. And now there is somebody trying to grab that status. People find it very difficult to accept that somebody might suffer more than us."

While rising xenophobia is playing a role, there are other factors behind the East-West divide, said Marcin Zaborowski, executive vice president at the Center for European Policy Analysis and head of its Warsaw office.

"The primary reason for this difference in attitude is that we come from a region where the tradition of accepting culturally different refugees is very weak," he said. "And now there is this wave of refugees from another continent that has no precedent, so people don't know what to think."

Most of the countries, like Poland, have "no proper infrastructure in place to deal with such cultural assimilation" and little appetite to spend precious resources building one, Mr. Zaborowski said.

As for the region's seeming indifference to the migrants' plight, that is partly because unlike France, Britain and Germany, the former Communist states have no history of colonialism, he said.

"The attitude is: We didn't meddle in these countries that are now sending the refugees, like other nations did, and so we have no sense of guilt about our obligation to deal with them," Mr. Zaborowski said.

And all of these attitudes blend together into a common aversion to being told what to do by Brussels.

In Hungary, Mr. Orban has taken a particularly uncompromising approach, demanding more help from Brussels in dealing with the tens of thousands who continue to enter his country while insisting that Hungary is under no obligation to endanger its traditional Christian values by accepting large numbers of Muslims.

I was talking to a friend today (who is also for helping/accepting the refugees) that this is probably the first time I remember in a very long time when I am encountering a complete cognitive dissonance from people I know. What I mean by that is most of my friends / colleagues / close family have, broadly speaking, similar outlook on life as I do - sure there may be differences but I kinda know where everybody stands and so on. Now, this is the first instance in so many years when people I considered open minded, tolerant and generally "modern" suddenly express views that are extremely racist and backwards (and I mean, really really racist - think grallon +10). It is mindboggling, especially given Poles are a nation that has had a lot of migration and refugee-dom in its history, and should be able to show at least a bit of fucking empathy.

[Syt]

A German left wing paper posited that Poland after WW2 was much less diverse, much more homogeneous than before, and that this, together with being a repressive foreign-dominated regime has left the populace distrustful of everything that's different.

[Martinus]

So does anyone here think this will seem like a smart move in 5 years?

I don't know if you are religious, Psellus, but just on the offhand that there is G-d and I stand to Final Judgement in some years, I would not want to go to it, arguing why I did not help thousands of dying people in need, because it was not "smart".

From that perspective, a 5 years perspective sounds awfully shortsighted.

[Martinus]

A German left wing paper posited that Poland after WW2 was much less diverse, much more homogeneous than before, and that this, together with being a repressive foreign-dominated regime has left the populace distrustful of everything that's different.

That's a given - not really a hypothesis as much as a fact.

[mongers]

.....

I was talking to a friend today (who is also for helping/accepting the refugees) that this is probably the first time I remember in a very long time when I am encountering a complete cognitive dissonance from people I know. What I mean by that is most of my friends / colleagues / close family have, broadly speaking, similar outlook on life as I do - sure there may be differences but I kinda know where everybody stands and so on. Now, this is the first issue in so many years when people I considered open minded, tolerant and generally "modern" suddenly express views that are extremely racist and backwards (and I mean, really really racist - think grallon +10). It is mindboggling, especially given Poles are a national that has had a lot of migration and refugee-dom in its history, and should be able to show at least a bit of fucking empathy.

Yes it's almost as if some European states, peoples or individuals are involved in a competition to see who can be the most callous, whilst simultaneously forgetting their own history.   

[Tamas]

Speaking of cultural differences, I have read that Getmany has stopped railroad traffic from Austria and is planning to reinstate border controls on the Austrian border

[garbon]

Speaking of cultural differences, I have read that Getmany has stopped railroad traffic from Austria and is planning to reinstate border controls on the Austrian border

Like was already reported up the thread?

[Syt]

@Zanza, you made the mistake of trying to talk to Andrelvis - he's an arrogant douchebag. He's a Brazilian who came to Austria to study and who stayed for work/marriage, but he's more Austrian than most Austrians now (anti-EU, xenophobe etc.).