EU Immigration Crisis Megathread

[Martinus]

I don't think the barbarian migrations during the final period of Roman empire offer any useful insights into the current crisis, if that's what is implied. The socio-political situation of classical Rome was completely different from that of modern West, so any analogies are bound to be grossly inaccurate.

[Agelastus]

I am reading this book now.

http://smile.amazon.com/Invasion-Europe-Barbarians-J-Bury/dp/0393003884/

"The classic study of the Roman Empire's gradual collapse in the face of barbarian migrations. The barbarians were a scattered assortment of peoples, from the migratory Huns of Central Asia to the Franks of Gaul to the Goths and Vandals of the Germanic forest. Rather than regarding Rome as a foe, many barbarians viewed the Empire as a great institution, one in which their people had a natural place."

Peter Heather's book on the same subject is definitely worth reading.

I've just finished reading Peter Heather's book on the fall of the Roman Empire. It has a lurid cover so I nearly didn't buy it, an excellent read though with some interesting ideas, recommended.

His "Empires and Barbarians" is also well worth reading.

[Richard Hakluyt]

@Agelastus - its on my list, I may also look at some of his other work when time permits.

[Martinus]

Just read an interview with a Hungarian aid worker - she said that volunteers helping the refugees are being regularly attacked verbally and, sometimes, physically by members of the Hungarian public, while the police does nothing. It reminds me a lot of the attacks on Poles who were helping Jews during WW2 (the difference being that Hungarians are not under a foreign occupation, of course). This is quite shameful that Eastern European nations do not seem to have risen out of their virulent antisemitism and xenophobia - only now the refugees are the targets.

[Admiral Yi]

@Agelastus - its on my list, I may also look at some of his other work when time permits.

Be prepared for a touch of redundancy.

[Agelastus]

@Agelastus - its on my list, I may also look at some of his other work when time permits.

Be prepared for a touch of redundancy.

It's more obvious/grating in his "Restoration of Rome" than in "Empires", but then that book feels weaker in other ways as well. There are interesting sections but in general I wouldn't recommend it.

[Duque de Bragança]

This is the data from the UNHCR:

http://data.unhcr.org/mediterranean/regional.html#_ga=1.171704992.1447245490.1441933645

72% are adult men, 13% women and only 15% are children. You'd never tell by seeing the photos the press feeds you.

I saw a headline that we are going to accept 10,000 refugees or something like that. We should offer to accept 200,000 or some other giant number, just because we are a big country and can absorb them easily and we can feel superior to the europeans. 

Wow, Mr. Generous.

200,000? Really?

Germany is 28 times smaller than the US and has one quarter of the population of America, yet is expecting four times that 'giant number' of yours. This year.

To be on the same level, you should be offering shelter to 3.2 million in 2015, and expecting far greater numbers in the coming years.

That said, there seems to be an idea that there will be this number of migrants arriving and that's it. Wonder where people get that idea? Merkel and Holland have already warned this is a long-term problem. The numbers advanced are for this year alone. There will be many, many, many more arriving in the following years, and in growing numbers.

Over here, there is some disgust at the fact that the government intends to give the 'refugees' top housing for free - the likes of which the average citizen cannot even dream of. And the fact that the Church is doing its best to lodge the intended newly arrivals is not exactly nice, given that it did not show the same solidarity when many thousands of local families lost their homes, in the wake of the economic crisis.

That said, that will be quite a minor issue - regardless of what people want, these migrants want to go to lands where the welfare is great, so most will move to Germany, Sweden or other northern european place within a month, like it happened with the Kosovars during the 1999 crisis (we welcomed 2,000 refugees, just to find out that 30 days later only 5 of them remained here: the police tried to track the the rest, finding some 700, who had moved to Germany or Scandinavia; Seems they weren't interested at all in a 'safe place to live', just live from handouts in rich countries, something we are not wealthy enough to do).

Which is why the idea of 'European sharing of the burden' is a fallacy - no mater how they are split amongst the EU member-states, basically ALL of them will go to Germany and Northern Europe regardless.

And the media will brand any attempt to keep them in the other EU countries as oppressive racism.

I am afraid I'll have to agree with Martim on this one.

That's what many people in Portugal and abroad do not understand, the centre-right and right in Portugal are not very conservative or right-wing. As for the alternative, the centre-left, likely to win the elections in October,  and other assorted lefty parties, they even want more, while only the worst of the crisis is over, the crisis itself being far from over.

[Richard Hakluyt]

@Agelastus - its on my list, I may also look at some of his other work when time permits.

Be prepared for a touch of redundancy.

It's more obvious/grating in his "Restoration of Rome" than in "Empires", but then that book feels weaker in other ways as well. There are interesting sections but in general I wouldn't recommend it.

I found him easy to skim when he got a bit verbose, don't think I missed anything of major import, his principal ideas are in open view.

[Tamas]

Looks like part of an Austrian motorway has had to be closed due to a few hundred migrants getting bored of waiting for buses and starting to march.

Also conditions at Austrian refugee centers are starting to deteriorate as more people are coming in.

Well, well, well.

Two things: however disgusting the Hungarian government is, maybe the outrcy last week by Europe was a bit overdone, considering how the other EU members who faced a number of migrants walking around (Denmark and Austria) seem to be having the exact same issues.

And I might actually switch over to the "out of EU" British crowd the moment I have my citizenship here. It's incredible how a few thousand homeless people can bring several countries to their knees.

[Martinus]

And I might actually switch over to the "out of EU" British crowd the moment I have my citizenship here. It's incredible how a few thousand homeless people can bring several countries to their knees.

You are despicable.

[Tamas]

Meanwhile Macedonia registered 7600 migrants arriving in the last 24 hours.

In Hungary they are nearing 1000 "caught" by the police just today so far.

It would appear that the last couple of months have just been the slow start of the real deal that still hasn't started yet.

[Tamas]

And I might actually switch over to the "out of EU" British crowd the moment I have my citizenship here. It's incredible how a few thousand homeless people can bring several countries to their knees.

You are despicable.

Me? Did Hungary not fail to handle the migrants? Did Denmark not conceded control of some of its roads to the migrants? Have Austria not stopped all train traffic between Budapest and Vienna, and also closed off part of the A1 motorway?

This is your Rage of the Week so I know you can't read properly, but I was attacking the ineptitude of EU governments, not the migrants.

[Martinus]

And I might actually switch over to the "out of EU" British crowd the moment I have my citizenship here. It's incredible how a few thousand homeless people can bring several countries to their knees.

You are despicable.

Me? Did Hungary not fail to handle the migrants? Did Denmark not conceded control of some of its roads to the migrants? Have Austria not stopped all train traffic between Budapest and Vienna, and also closed off part of the A1 motorway?

This is your Rage of the Week so I know you can't read properly, but I was attacking the ineptitude of EU governments, not the migrants.

I meant the first sentence I quoted.

[Jaron]

What gall Martinus has. Tamas barely qualifies as white.

[Richard Hakluyt]

I'm certainly glad that we have the English Channel and are not members of Schengen. Immigration is over 600k a year here but it is conducted according to the law.