EU Immigration Crisis Megathread

[Zanza]

I didn't say it was nefarious. I moved to Germany for the very same reasons not long ago.

In any case you are making my point. They are not going there to enjoy Western human rights. They are going to Germany in particular for very good reasons: they'll be able to make a better living there.

One follows from.the other: a well working economy could be found closer to home in the UAE. But they wouldn't get the same human rights th here as in Europe so they rather come here.

[Martinus]

Rule of law and presumption of innocence are all concepts of internal legal systems - they do not extend to immigration policy. There is no inherent right of a foreigner to settle in your country.

Your point being what? German criminal law applies to all humans in Germany's jurisdiction, no matter what their residential status is and what Germany's current immigration policy is. It's completely irrelevant whether you are a German, a legal migrant, a visitor or an asylum seeker.

But this is not about German criminal law but about German immigration policy. I am not saying that it would be the right solution, but deciding to deport or not to accept immigrants (coming from a certain country, culture or religion, for example) is not a criminal law measure and thus does not have to meet the same standard as you refer to.

[Martinus]

It does give an inherent right to asylum

This seems... unwise.

[Syt]

It does give an inherent right to asylum

This seems... unwise.

http://www.un.org/en/universal-declaration-human-rights/

Article 14.

(1) Everyone has the right to seek and to enjoy in other countries asylum from persecution.
(2) This right may not be invoked in the case of prosecutions genuinely arising from non-political crimes or from acts contrary to the purposes and principles of the United Nations.

[The Brain]

It does give an inherent right to asylum

This seems... unwise.

http://www.un.org/en/universal-declaration-human-rights/

Article 14.

(1) Everyone has the right to seek and to enjoy in other countries asylum from persecution.
(2) This right may not be invoked in the case of prosecutions genuinely arising from non-political crimes or from acts contrary to the purposes and principles of the United Nations.

Sane countries don't make that document law.

[Tamas]

Following the events in Cologne, Slovakia has said that it will not accept any Muslim refugees as they can't be integrated into European society.

It's amazing how they are so sure of the religion of the attackers, and that the attacks prove something essential about the people of that religion  - given that, as I understand, not a one of 'em has been arrested yet, let alone convicted. 

This is the exact counterproductive head-in-the-sand BS from the left that's going to give the reigns of power to the far right. Maybe not in Canada but in Europe most certainly.
It gives the impression that liberalism is by necessity clueless and weak, which it does not have to be at all.

I think it stems from the absolutely wrong view that desire for modern human rights and advanced social constructs are somehow born with every human and are the default state of things. THEY ARE NOT.

I mean look at the struggle nowadays in the First World for equal treatment of homosexuals, and in many places still, even women. The very same fights were fought just a generation or two ago to consider women the same level of human beings as men.

The  societies we live in the developed world are extremely fragile and fairly new constructs.

The assumption that everyone who is a newcomer to these societies will instantly recognise their superiority in creating a more liveable environment for the individuals is seriously wrong.
Modern society expects more level of compromise and voluntary reduction of privileges from privileged groups than what is considered the heatlhy norm in pretty much the rest of the world, and even by a sizeable minority in our own countries.

Lets realise: this is where all the "privilege talk" applies most: these men from third world cultures had HUGE privileges over their female brethren.
How can we realistically expect  to have ALL of them immediately de-announce their physical and legal superiority over women, when for their entire previous life they were told, taught, and shown of, the exact opposite being the good and rightous (not to mention personally highly beneficial) way for them?
Of course some of them will be totally unable to adopt.

But the answer isn't for us to adopt defensive mechanisms and worsen our standards of living while in a 100 years their old ways slowly give way to European standards. The way is to establish our ways as very strict values upon which everyone who wishes to stay must base their lives on.

Those who showcase things that are clearly against our basic values, from mass-raping to covering their women from head to toe as precious livestock, should be made to conform to the values and laws (eg. men considering females their equals) they want to reap the benefits of.

Those migrants who are able to understand this, and in fact are looking to adopt such a way of life should not only be accepted but actively helped to settle and integrate. Those who show a desire to continue their old ways while enjoying the economic benefit of the more modern societies should be rejected and sent back.

[Crazy_Ivan80]

It does give an inherent right to asylum

This seems... unwise.

http://www.un.org/en/universal-declaration-human-rights/

Article 14.

(1) Everyone has the right to seek and to enjoy in other countries asylum from persecution.
(2) This right may not be invoked in the case of prosecutions genuinely arising from non-political crimes or from acts contrary to the purposes and principles of the United Nations.

counter with this:
https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Biedermann_und_die_Brandstifter
(https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Fire_Raisers_(play))

[Zanza]

Rule of law and presumption of innocence are all concepts of internal legal systems - they do not extend to immigration policy. There is no inherent right of a foreigner to settle in your country.

Your point being what? German criminal law applies to all humans in Germany's jurisdiction, no matter what their residential status is and what Germany's current immigration policy is. It's completely irrelevant whether you are a German, a legal migrant, a visitor or an asylum seeker.

But this is not about German criminal law but about German immigration policy. I am not saying that it would be the right solution, but deciding to deport or not to accept immigrants (coming from a certain country, culture or religion, for example) is not a criminal law measure and thus does not have to meet the same standard as you refer to.

I thought we were talking about the recent cases of sexual assaults and robbery in Cologne. That's criminal law.
But if you are talking about immigration policy in general, rule of law principles forbid broad group exclusion there as well. The right to asylum in Germany is an individual human right.

[Syt]

counter with this:
https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Biedermann_und_die_Brandstifter
(https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Fire_Raisers_(play))

You're right - the far right have suddenly discovered their feminist side to justify their xenophobia, and we must be careful about not letting them get too strong.

I agree with Zanza that the perpetrators of these events need to be found and punished according to German law and to make sure that such incidents of large groups of men targeting women won't repeat. Putting a whole group of people, defined by ethnicity, religion or political affiliation, under suspicion and/or surveillance is not the solution. Having a different world view, even one that runs counter to German societal norms and values is not a crime in and of itself - otherwise the "concerned citizens" protesting every Monday in Dresden would long have been put behind bars.

[Solmyr]

Following the events in Cologne, Slovakia has said that it will not accept any Muslim refugees as they can't be integrated into European society.

It's amazing how they are so sure of the religion of the attackers, and that the attacks prove something essential about the people of that religion  - given that, as I understand, not a one of 'em has been arrested yet, let alone convicted. 

Apparently this also happened in Helsinki with the police noting that they were tipped off about asylum seekers planning to sexually harass women. In the two filed complaints, the suspects were asylum seekers and have been arrested.

This was proven false. The main news agency Yle misquoted our Minister of the Interior and claimed that there was some kind of larger plan in the works. However, nothing of the sort has been proven, there were no large crowd of immigrants gathered at the Central Railway Station (as was claimed), and the two confirmed harassment cases were from different areas of the city and unrelated to each other.

[Syt]

This graphic sums it up rather nicely.

Green: "Leave alone because innocent"
Red: "Identify, investigate, prosecute, punish/deport because criminal assholes"
Circles: "Refugees" / "New Years Eve Perpetrators" - "Men" / "New Years Eve Perpetrators"
Top right: "Possible Cross-section (currently undetermined)"



Still surprising that police were caught so off guard; Cologne, being one of the carnival capitals in Germany, should have experience with handling large crowds of drunks.

[garbon]

Following the events in Cologne, Slovakia has said that it will not accept any Muslim refugees as they can't be integrated into European society.

It's amazing how they are so sure of the religion of the attackers, and that the attacks prove something essential about the people of that religion  - given that, as I understand, not a one of 'em has been arrested yet, let alone convicted. 

Apparently this also happened in Helsinki with the police noting that they were tipped off about asylum seekers planning to sexually harass women. In the two filed complaints, the suspects were asylum seekers and have been arrested.

This was proven false. The main news agency Yle misquoted our Minister of the Interior and claimed that there was some kind of larger plan in the works. However, nothing of the sort has been proven, there were no large crowd of immigrants gathered at the Central Railway Station (as was claimed), and the two confirmed harassment cases were from different areas of the city and unrelated to each other.

Ah good to know.

[Crazy_Ivan80]

counter with this:
https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Biedermann_und_die_Brandstifter
(https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Fire_Raisers_(play))

You're right - the far right have suddenly discovered their feminist side to justify their xenophobia, and we must be careful about not letting them get too strong.

this stopped being an extreme-right thing quite a while ago, despite the best efforts of the leftist gutmensch.

[Tamas]

At the moment yes. But if the pushing continues for too long, it will be a far-right issue again, except on far bigger proportions.

[Legbiter]

Hey, cuckolding fetish is as healthy expression of one's sexuality as any other. 

The kraut kind and sensitive person is not entirely happy though, crossed legs looking into the middle distance, trying to beat back the bad thoughts creeping up on him with happy thoughts about all the praise his progressive social circle will shower him with.