David Frum: What If the Allies Had Lost World War One?

[Malthus]

Fuck is all this shit now? 

I was hoping for some nice Turtledove-like plotlines when I opened this thread up.

"If Germany won WWII they would invent a time machine and go back in time and give the Confederates AK-47s and then Thomas Edison would president of the United Communist States of America lolololol"

Except it would be Telsa who was President. 

[ducks, runs]

[Valmy]

I think the Giant Ants of Brest-Litovsk sabotage their time machine and they end up arming Sulla's army with AK-47s during the Mithrodatic Wars.

[The Brain]

Fuck is all this shit now? 

I was hoping for some nice Turtledove-like plotlines when I opened this thread up.

"If Germany won WWII they would invent a time machine and go back in time and give the Confederates AK-47s and then Thomas Edison would president of the United Communist States of America lolololol"

Except it would be Telsa who was President. 

[ducks, runs]

[Eddie Teach]

Except it would be Tesla who was President. 

[ducks, runs]

The sign says "Long-haired freaky people need not apply".

[crazy canuck]

I think the Giant Ants of Brest-Litovsk sabotage their time machine and they end up arming Sulla's army with AK-47s during the Mithrodatic Wars.

Except Sulla is Tesla

[Ed Anger]

 

[dps]

I'm pretty comfortable with the idea that both the US and UK have been democracies long enough that the War of 1812 was, in fact, a war between democracies.  OTOH, I would argue that the US generally was more democratic all through the 19th Century.

[The Brain]

I'm pretty comfortable with the idea that both the US and UK have been democracies long enough that the War of 1812 was, in fact, a war between democracies. 

I see.

[Razgovory]

I would say that not every person in a country must have franchise for it to be a democracy.  People in Guam can't vote in US federal elections yet we still consider the US a democracy.  You can be born in France and live your entire life there and not have citizenship and thus wouldn't be able to vote, yet France is still a Democracy.

[Duque de Bragança]

You can be born in France and live your entire life there and not have citizenship and thus wouldn't be able to vote, yet France is still a Democracy.

Wrong. Jus soli country, with some jus sanguinis added as a bonus. It's pretty much automatic. The only way to avoid French citizenship is to refuse at age 18. Very easy to pick it before for people coming from the former French colonies.
Besides, EU citizens can vote in local and European elections.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/French_nationality_law#Birth_in_France

French nationality law is historically based on the principles of jus soli (Latin for "right of soil"), according to Ernest Renan's definition, in opposition to the German definition of nationality, Jus sanguinis (Latin for "right of blood"), formalized by Johann Gottlieb Fichte.

The 1993 Méhaignerie Law required children born in France of foreign parents to request French nationality at adulthood, rather than being automatically accorded citizenship. This "manifestation of will" requirement was subsequently abrogated by the Guigou Law of 1998,[1] but children born in France of foreign parents remain foreign until obtaining legal majority.

So in the past, for a mere five years, you were not totally wrong.

PS: jus soli pretty was pretty much enshrined by the Third Republic.

[Eddie Teach]

So in the past, for a mere five years, you were not totally wrong.

He's still not totally wrong, as one's entire life may be less than 18 years.

[Duque de Bragança]

So in the past, for a mere five years, you were not totally wrong.

He's still not totally wrong, as one's entire life may be less than 18 years.

I never thought the US mortality rates were so high.

[Razgovory]

You can be born in France and live your entire life there and not have citizenship and thus wouldn't be able to vote, yet France is still a Democracy.

Wrong. Jus soli country, with some jus sanguinis added as a bonus. It's pretty much automatic. The only way to avoid French citizenship is to refuse at age 18. Very easy to pick it before for people coming from the former French colonies.
Besides, EU citizens can vote in local and European elections.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/French_nationality_law#Birth_in_France

French nationality law is historically based on the principles of jus soli (Latin for "right of soil"), according to Ernest Renan's definition, in opposition to the German definition of nationality, Jus sanguinis (Latin for "right of blood"), formalized by Johann Gottlieb Fichte.

The 1993 Méhaignerie Law required children born in France of foreign parents to request French nationality at adulthood, rather than being automatically accorded citizenship. This "manifestation of will" requirement was subsequently abrogated by the Guigou Law of 1998,[1] but children born in France of foreign parents remain foreign until obtaining legal majority.

So in the past, for a mere five years, you were not totally wrong.

PS: jus soli pretty was pretty much enshrined by the Third Republic.

Children born in France (including overseas territories) to at least one parent who is also born in France automatically acquire French citizenship at birth (double jus soli).

A child born in France to foreign parents may acquire French citizenship:[3]

    at birth, if stateless.
    at 18, if resident in France with at least 5 years' residence since age 11.
    between 16 and 18 upon request by the child and if resident in France with at least 5 years' residence since age 11.
    between 13 and 16 upon request by the child's parents and if resident in France continuously since age 8.
    if born in France of parents born before independence in a colony/territory in the past under French sovereignty.
        at birth, if born in France before January 1, 1994.
        at age 18, if born in France on or after January 1, 1994.

A child who was born abroad and who has only one French parent can repudiate his French nationality during the six months prior to his or her reaching the age of majority, or in the year which follows it (article 19-4 of the Civil Code).

That seems rather complicated and does indicate you can be born in France and not be a citizen.


P.S.  I thought you were on Republic number five now.

[Duque de Bragança]

You can be born in France and live your entire life there and not have citizenship and thus wouldn't be able to vote, yet France is still a Democracy.

That seems rather complicated and does indicate you can be born in France and not be a citizen.

Even more complicated when moving goal posts. Five years of residence is not exactly to achieve when you're born and live in the same country till 18 years old of age.
In practice, most people born in France end up French, this accounts for the low percentage of foreign citizens when compared to similar other EU countries.

[celedhring]

I don't think you can call yourself a democracy without women suffrage myself; that's roughly 50% of the population being denied participation in the political process. The whole point of a democracy is to allow subjects' participation in the entirety of the political process (no powers reserved for unelected officials), so a significant franchise is necessary.