David Frum: What If the Allies Had Lost World War One?

[MadImmortalMan]

We still call ancient Athens a democracy and got the word from there. I honestly doubt they had a bigger percentage of the population voting than 1914 Britain did.

[The Brain]

We still call ancient Athens a democracy and got the word from there. I honestly doubt they had a bigger percentage of the population voting than 1914 Britain did.

And in the ancient context it's OK.

[crazy canuck]

Calling a country where a minority of adults have a vote a democracy isn't necessarily wrong in some particular context, but it's not obviously correct and it is a bit misleading.

Ok, calling a country which allows some of its regions to create laws limiting the ability of the vast majority of one race to vote a democracy isn't necessarily wrong either, but would you really suggest the US was not a democracy until the late 1960s.

[Gups]

The US had male only suffrage in 1917 didn't it? And de facto restrictions on suffrage of black males.

It doesn't seem radically more of a democracy in 1917 than the UK was.

Radically? Probably not - but there was a pretty fundamental difference between largely universal voting rights that in a practical sense meant only the wealthy could vote, and hence only their interests would be represented, and on where even though sufferage is far from universal, it still allowed for the bulk of the citizen classes to vote, hence forcing politicians to cater to their views.

Again, the point here is that Frum's position is not ridiculous if you take it in the context he is making it - the 1918 Act made a HUGE difference in the maeup of the voting population in the UK. Tripling the number of voters is not a difference in just scale, but in kind.

60% of British men were not wealthy. At the previous elections in 1906 and 1910, a radical Liberal Government had been elected which introduced pensions and unemployment benefits precipitating a constitutional crisis when these were blocked by the wealthy (the House of Lords0

Back of an envelope calculations. Assuming a 50/50 male/female split in both the UK and the US and 90/10 white/black in the US. We have 30% of the UK population enfranchised and 45% of the US population.

[Admiral Yi]

Yeah.  60% means you have to own a pair of shoes to vote.

[Norgy]

How is that a democracy?
A property qualification is usually there for the exact opposite reason of allowing democratic rule.

If you accept that logic then it seems to me age requirements mean no country is democratic.

No, it doesn't.
Most countries have an age limit for when you become a citizen with full rights. But not a property qualification.

[KRonn]

I think it's interesting and something I never really considered that if Germany and its allies had won WWI then how different Europe may have looked. Going by the author's thoughts, it's mostly how different the political systems might have been given that the countries that came out of it as sovereign nations may not have done so, or if they did may not have developed some sort of democracy, and kept some sort of similar govt. as Germany/Austria had. There's more to it as would Russia have been able to go Communist? Maybe a victorious Germany would have sent the troops and weapons to help fight against the Communist side and do more than what was actually done by the US, UK, and others who did get involved since it would be right on Germany's border and seen as quite threatening.

Would France have recovered well enough after the defeat and loss of territory to retain its form of government? And would they be totally over shadowed by a victorious and larger Germany which also has more influence?

It all really opens up some good pondering on what Europe would have looked like twenty years later, and what the next hot or cold war might have been like given that Germany may have been able to progress even more so in economy, technology, nukes, and weapons of war.

[Warspite]

I wonder if in this alternative universe whether it's the French who come up with the stab-in-the-back myth.

[Norgy]

For the Jews, it would've been good news.
The French would never have trains running on time.

[Crazy_Ivan80]

I wonder if in this alternative universe whether it's the French who come up with the stab-in-the-back myth.

a slug in the back I guess

[Admiral Yi]

No, it doesn't.
Most countries have an age limit for when you become a citizen with full rights. But not a property qualification.

If we're going to go with the "what most countries do" definition of democracy, then I imagine the UK in 1914 passes, no?

Actually, come to think of it, that's something I know nothing about.

[dps]

Imperial Germany was a strange concoction. Not only was it the most modern country in the world and had industry that put everyone else's to shame, but it also had the Reichstag. Which had no power.

I think imperial Germany eventually would have reformed and that it was hamstrung by Wilhelm II. By all accounts, he seems like the archetype of a bumbling buffoon.

My understanding was that the Reichstag did have power over the budget.

[Barrister]

How is that a democracy?
A property qualification is usually there for the exact opposite reason of allowing democratic rule.

If you accept that logic then it seems to me age requirements mean no country is democratic.

No, it doesn't.
Most countries have an age limit for when you become a citizen with full rights. But not a property qualification.

As I read it the UK between 1884 and 1918 didn't exactly have a property qualification.  You could rent and be a voter.  It's just you had to have a stable residence for a number of months, which still disenfranchised those who were more transient.

[Lettow77]

It seems the advancement of women's suffrage and the devolution of enfranchisement to the lowest of classes should be understood as part of the empire's decline onset by the war- part of the enormous cost that was paid, and the sun setting on undisputed European hegemony.

[dps]

As far as the main "what if" is concerned, I think it would have mattered a great deal just when and how the CP won.  The results of a CP victory in 1914 would likely be far different than the results of a CP victory in 1917 (I assume that a CP victory after 1917 can't happen if the US enters the war.  Without US entry, I suppose it could happen, but a peace in the West by mutual exhaustion could maybe be more likely.)