Police could seize illegal workers' wages under Tory plans

[Josquius]

As part of joining the EC they had to get rid of any colonial preferences.

That seems unusual.
Don't latin Americans still get special treatment in Iberia?

In Sweden we'd be thrilled if foreigners worked.

They would be thrilled if you would employ them.

They are gypsy beggars. They don't seek employment.

All of them?

[Norgy]

I see. 

[grumbler]

I can see the logic of making it less advantageous to immigrate illegally then to come legally and then work illegally, but British immigration laws seem more fucked up even than those of the US, and that's saying something.

[The Minsky Moment]

The US has the problem with insufficient H2B visas and the use of that program as a political football.  So we have this ridiculous situation where the country hosting the best universities on the planet educates the best students and then chucks a good portion of them out.  But at least the President pays lip service to the idea that having high skilled immigrants is good.

Every now and then you hear rumblings in the UK about building a strong tech industry, and having Cambridge as a mini-silicon valley and such.  Then you see the PM giving a speech threatening industries "over-reliant" on skilled furriners.  Hmm ... wonder what those industries might be? 

[Josquius]

That's a good thing though surely?
The point of foreign students should be they gain the advantage of education here then take that knowledge home to make their country a better place.
Going to university in a other country shouldn't be thought of just in terms of a quick immigration cheat - though that is definitely in large part how a lot of foreign students view it. Those ones need discouraging so they don't steal places from the actually dedicated.


Anyway. Don't see this taking immigrants wages thing working out at all. Illegals don't exactly have great intel about how things actually are in the uk and even if they did know about this they would still think it worth trying .
This is totally the wrong direction to go in for dealing with illegals. Treating them as criminals just pushes them underground. A lot of illegals head to the uk thinking they will get a job easily and be living In a lovely house within a year or two, ready for their family to come over and join them. They instead often end up borderline homeless occasionally casual workers who are worse off than at home.
We need to create an environment where they feel comfortable to come forward, pass on Intel about the scum bags who brought  them over and be sent home.

[Warspite]

Just one episode of the lunacy of the British immigration system.

This was not on my radar screen until I read about Cameron's speech in today's paper.  At first I thought it was some kind of joke - then I read the actual speech and no it's really what he said.  A country that is near full employment but is suffering from productivity shortfalls actually sets as a policy goal to LOWER the amount of skilled immigrants ?!  Artificially limiting the time professions can be classified as having skills shortage ?!  Attacking sectors for being "over-reliant" on skilled immigrants ?!  Seeking to shut down skilled immigrants from outside the EU -- i,e. telling a giant FU to all those Indian STEM grads ?!

WTF is a country of 64 million people doing fretting about a net migration rate of 300K (less than 1/2 a percent), and who in his right mind would respond to such a fake "problem" by cracking down and harassing HIGHLY SKILLED IMMIGRANTS?



Is this some English self-deprecation thing, where having won an unexpectedly strong electoral triumph, Cameron feels the need to humble himself by making the single most idiotic speech by a first world leader in the last decade (not named George Bush)?

As an American all I can say is great - we'll take 'em.

You are, of course, entirely correct.

The problem, however, with collective madness, once it has seized an electorate, is that it is very difficult to eradicate, and the use of facts and reason often have the opposite effect to that intended.

[crazy canuck]

It is a malady that appears to be spreading.  Here in Canada we used to have a robust foreign worker program that made it relatively easy for workers (both skilled and unskilled) to be employed in Canada.  Many go on to apply for citizenship.  But last year the Federal Government effectively ended the program because of a controversy over fast food restaurants hiring through the foreign workers program.  The problem is the government didn't replace the program with anything.  And so now everyone from high tech companies and universities to restaurants and people looking for nannies are affected.

This is a country that depends on attracting immigrants and foreign workers to grow our economy.  It is, to borrow Warspite's phrase, collective madness.

[Barrister]

It is a malady that appears to be spreading.  Here in Canada we used to have a robust foreign worker program that made it relatively easy for workers (both skilled and unskilled) to be employed in Canada.  Many go on to apply for citizenship.  But last year the Federal Government effectively ended the program because of a controversy over fast food restaurants hiring through the foreign workers program.  The problem is the government didn't replace the program with anything.  And so now everyone from high tech companies and universities to restaurants and people looking for nannies are affected.

This is a country that depends on attracting immigrants and foreign workers to grow our economy.  It is, to borrow Warspite's phrase, collective madness.

I don't think that's quite right.

They did end/merge the temporary foreign worker program, which I do think was being abused.  You would walk into, say, a Tim Horton's, and realize that every single person working there was from the Phillipines.  The government also made in rather clear they didn't like the live-in caregiver program, and folded that into the general program as well (I just read today that apparently the government is rejecting 97% of caregiver visa requests).

But that's only the temporary foreign worker program.  My understanding is that the regular, points based system continues  to admit large numbers of new immigrants - and why wouldn't it, as appealing to new immigrants is a huge part of the Conservatives overall electoral strategy.

[crazy canuck]

BB, universities are now finding it much more difficult to obtain working permits for foreign professors, visiting chairs etc.  High tech companies are finding it very difficult to now bring in people on contracts (executives and employees) etc.  Restaurants in this area are crying out for employees because they can't fill the void left by the cancellation of the program.

The system is a mess right now.  The government didn't think before it reacted to what they perceived to be a political advantage of going anti-immigrant.

Put it this way, our immigration system is terrible at bringing in needed people in a timely way.  The foreign worker program covered up a lot of those problems.  And now it is gone.

[Admiral Yi]

Joan, surely you can see the potential for abuse under a program that grants a visa for the price of tuition.

[Razgovory]

That's a good thing though surely?
The point of foreign students should be they gain the advantage of education here then take that knowledge home to make their country a better place.
Going to university in a other country shouldn't be thought of just in terms of a quick immigration cheat - though that is definitely in large part how a lot of foreign students view it. Those ones need discouraging so they don't steal places from the actually dedicated.


Anyway. Don't see this taking immigrants wages thing working out at all. Illegals don't exactly have great intel about how things actually are in the uk and even if they did know about this they would still think it worth trying .
This is totally the wrong direction to go in for dealing with illegals. Treating them as criminals just pushes them underground. A lot of illegals head to the uk thinking they will get a job easily and be living In a lovely house within a year or two, ready for their family to come over and join them. They instead often end up borderline homeless occasionally casual workers who are worse off than at home.
We need to create an environment where they feel comfortable to come forward, pass on Intel about the scum bags who brought  them over and be sent home.

I dislike forcing our guest student out.  If they want to return to dumbfuckistan, by all means that should be their choice.  But letting the best and brightest of them experience 1st world living only to toss them back to the desperate poverty and joblessness of Shrewsbury seems cruel.

[crazy canuck]

Joan, surely you can see the potential for abuse under a program that grants a visa for the price of tuition.

But that isn't what is being advocated.  If a foreign student excels at the finest universities in the US and obtains a job offer in the US after that training, what interest is served by turning them away?

[Warspite]

Joan, surely you can see the potential for abuse under a program that grants a visa for the price of tuition.

But that isn't what is being advocated.  If a foreign student excels at the finest universities in the US and obtains a job offer in the US after that training, what interest is served by turning them away?

A less talented domestic graduate has a better shot at that job.

[crazy canuck]

Joan, surely you can see the potential for abuse under a program that grants a visa for the price of tuition.

But that isn't what is being advocated.  If a foreign student excels at the finest universities in the US and obtains a job offer in the US after that training, what interest is served by turning them away?

A less talented domestic graduate has a better shot at that job.

Sure, the lesser talented person loses out.  But I was wondering what sort of abuses Yi has in mind.

[Ancient Demon]

BB, universities are now finding it much more difficult to obtain working permits for foreign professors, visiting chairs etc.  High tech companies are finding it very difficult to now bring in people on contracts (executives and employees) etc.  Restaurants in this area are crying out for employees because they can't fill the void left by the cancellation of the program.

The system is a mess right now.  The government didn't think before it reacted to what they perceived to be a political advantage of going anti-immigrant.

Put it this way, our immigration system is terrible at bringing in needed people in a timely way.  The foreign worker program covered up a lot of those problems.  And now it is gone.

Maybe they could hire Canadian citizens instead.