Putin's Bikers on Red Army Victory Tour

[grumbler]

We should just have let them go there. Who cares.

I agree.  Whoever they are and wherever there is, let them go, and no one cares.  Hell, the Russian Army went to Berlin in '45 and the Germans didn't seem to care.

[PDH]

The thing is that they are who they are, and they do things because of the history they have.  We need to remember that they have always acted this way.

Wait, what they are they again?

[Neil]

Putin was a man that could be worked with.  I feel that if the West was willing to play the give and take of diplomacy, Putin could probably be dealt with.  However, at this point, Putin is well aware that the West expects Russia to give whatever they ask, in exchange for nothing.  Did people really think that they could just carve countries out of Russia's sphere and that the Russians wouldn't react?

That's ridiculous.  At the very start of the Crimea crisis Obama in effect offered international recognition of the annexation in exchange for pulling out of the rest of Ukraine.

Do you think that recognizing the annexation of the Crimea was worth Russia giving up control of the rest of Ukraine?  Russians don't.

[Neil]

Putin was a man that could be worked with.  I feel that if the West was willing to play the give and take of diplomacy, Putin could probably be dealt with.  However, at this point, Putin is well aware that the West expects Russia to give whatever they ask, in exchange for nothing.  Did people really think that they could just carve countries out of Russia's sphere and that the Russians wouldn't react?

We had carved countries out of their sphere for the last twenty years, so why not continue? Those Eastern bloc countries that joined the West in EU and NATO are much better off than those that didn't.

Why would Russians care about the quality of life in their subject states?  Did you think that the Russians were just going to sit idly by as their territories were sliced away?  Where do you think they should draw the line, and why do you think they should agree with you?

[grumbler]

Love the lingo, Neil.  "As their territories were sliced away" sounds so Third Age Gondor.  Russians are used, by now, to having "their" territories "sliced away."  Finland, Poland, the Baltic states, on and on.  The temporary lull in Russian loserdom from 1815-1914 was the exception, not the rule.  They'll lose a hell of a lot more before they gain anything.

[Neil]

I think your analysis ignores the couple of centuries of Russian expansion prior to 1815.  But even if you were spot on, why would the Russians want to give up what they see as theirs without a struggle?  What are we offering them?

[grumbler]

I think your analysis ignores the couple of centuries of Russian expansion prior to 1815.  But even if you were spot on, why would the Russians want to give up what they see as theirs without a struggle?  What are we offering them?

Russian expansion prior to 1815 (and after 1815) was akin to Britain's expansion overseas.  Chechnya is to Russia as Palestine is to the UK.  Like the UK, Russia will eventually retreat from empire out of sheer weariness.  I certainly don't expect Russians to do the smart thing and abandon their empire without a fight; like the French, they will lose as many wars as they can economically afford to, and then lose one more.  Hopefully, like the French, that last war will shock them to their senses.

[Admiral Yi]

Putin was a man that could be worked with.  I feel that if the West was willing to play the give and take of diplomacy, Putin could probably be dealt with.  However, at this point, Putin is well aware that the West expects Russia to give whatever they ask, in exchange for nothing.  Did people really think that they could just carve countries out of Russia's sphere and that the Russians wouldn't react?

That's ridiculous.  At the very start of the Crimea crisis Obama in effect offered international recognition of the annexation in exchange for pulling out of the rest of Ukraine.

Do you think that recognizing the annexation of the Crimea was worth Russia giving up control of the rest of Ukraine?  Russians don't.

I think recognizing the annexation of the Crimea is not "Russia giving whatever the West asks, in exchange for nothing."

[Neil]

Putin was a man that could be worked with.  I feel that if the West was willing to play the give and take of diplomacy, Putin could probably be dealt with.  However, at this point, Putin is well aware that the West expects Russia to give whatever they ask, in exchange for nothing.  Did people really think that they could just carve countries out of Russia's sphere and that the Russians wouldn't react?

That's ridiculous.  At the very start of the Crimea crisis Obama in effect offered international recognition of the annexation in exchange for pulling out of the rest of Ukraine.

Do you think that recognizing the annexation of the Crimea was worth Russia giving up control of the rest of Ukraine?  Russians don't.

I think recognizing the annexation of the Crimea is not "Russia giving whatever the West asks, in exchange for nothing."

But think about it.  The West was saying 'You can have Crimea, but the rest of Ukraine is ours', whereas before it had all been under Russian sway.

[Neil]

I think your analysis ignores the couple of centuries of Russian expansion prior to 1815.  But even if you were spot on, why would the Russians want to give up what they see as theirs without a struggle?  What are we offering them?

Russian expansion prior to 1815 (and after 1815) was akin to Britain's expansion overseas.  Chechnya is to Russia as Palestine is to the UK.  Like the UK, Russia will eventually retreat from empire out of sheer weariness.  I certainly don't expect Russians to do the smart thing and abandon their empire without a fight; like the French, they will lose as many wars as they can economically afford to, and then lose one more.  Hopefully, like the French, that last war will shock them to their senses.

Perhaps.  Still, there's always a chance that Russia will go the American West route and just exterminate their subject peoples.  Although with the low Russian birthrate and high emigration, perhaps that's not in the cards.

[Admiral Yi]

But think about it.  The West was saying 'You can have Crimea, but the rest of Ukraine is ours', whereas before it had all been under Russian sway.

After deep and prolonged thought, I still don't see how recognition of the annexation is Russia giving whatever the West asks in exchange for nothing.

[Neil]

But think about it.  The West was saying 'You can have Crimea, but the rest of Ukraine is ours', whereas before it had all been under Russian sway.

After deep and prolonged thought, I still don't see how recognition of the annexation is Russia giving whatever the West asks in exchange for nothing.

Because Russia has to give the west the rest of Ukraine, only keeping the Crimea.

[Admiral Yi]

OK Neil.

[Eddie Teach]

Russian expansion prior to 1815 (and after 1815) was akin to Britain's expansion overseas.  Chechnya is to Russia as Palestine is to the UK.  Like the UK, Russia will eventually retreat from empire out of sheer weariness.  I certainly don't expect Russians to do the smart thing and abandon their empire without a fight; like the French, they will lose as many wars as they can economically afford to, and then lose one more.  Hopefully, like the French, that last war will shock them to their senses.

Siberia was pretty beneficial. Lots of oil and other resources, hardly any unruly natives.

[grumbler]

Siberia was pretty beneficial. Lots of oil and other resources, hardly any unruly natives.

Siberia (except the farthest-east portion, which has its own independence movement) is to Russia as the North Sea is to the UK.