Is the Obama Honeymoon Over?

[The Brain]

Let me guess: the MRI is in operation 8h a day?

[Berkut]

And for the record, since I think Canucks caunckistanie cackles are starting to raise up, I am not making any claim about the comparative superiority of the US system. They both ration health care, and I am certainly not convinced that the US system is superior.

But the idea that the Canadian system does not ration healthcare is pretty funny. Of course it does.

[DGuller]

I can't get MRIs on my legs anymore, too much metal.

This is your medical non sequitur of the day.

I guess you could use MRI to remove all that hardware from your leg.

[crazy canuck]

And my wife has been having some chronic pain in her knee.  She asked about getting an MRI - they laughed and said maybe in a year.

Well, you know, as long as there isn't any rationing!

He lives in the middle of nowhere.  He will necessarily not get the same access to medical treatment as someone who lives in a big city.

But then you knew that....

So people in the big city never have to wait for MRIs, or other routine medical care? Or even non-routine medical care?

There is a difference between treatment of acute cases and chronic cases.  There is no wait time for emergency procedures.  If BB's wife had an acute problem she would get immediate access.  It sounds like BB's wife has a chronic problem that is not urgent.

Would she get immediate treatment from an HMO doctor?

[crazy canuck]

But the idea that the Canadian system does not ration healthcare is pretty funny. Of course it does.

Please read along.  I agreed with Grumbler.

The point is that we dont notice restrictions in our health care the same way most Americans do under your private health policies.

[Berkut]

And my wife has been having some chronic pain in her knee.  She asked about getting an MRI - they laughed and said maybe in a year.

Well, you know, as long as there isn't any rationing!

He lives in the middle of nowhere.  He will necessarily not get the same access to medical treatment as someone who lives in a big city.

But then you knew that....

So people in the big city never have to wait for MRIs, or other routine medical care? Or even non-routine medical care?

There is a difference between treatment of acute cases and chronic cases.  There is no wait time for emergency procedures.  If BB's wife had an acute problem she would get immediate access.  It sounds like BB's wife has a chronic problem that is not urgent.

Would she get immediate treatment from an HMO doctor?

Of course not. But I am not claiming that medical care is not rationed in the US.

[crazy canuck]

Let me guess: the MRI is in operation 8h a day?

There are actually several private radiology clinics that have opened up to meet the demand.  They are all paid through the single payor model.

Which is why I started by saying it is a misnomer to call our model "socialized medicine" there is a lot of room for private actors within a single payor system.

[crazy canuck]

Of course not. But I am not claiming that medical care is not rationed in the US.

My claim is that to the extent health care is rationed in Canada, such rationing is not noticeable in the same way it is noticeable in the US.

[Berkut]

But the idea that the Canadian system does not ration healthcare is pretty funny. Of course it does.

Please read along.  I agreed with Grumbler.

The point is that we dont notice restrictions in our health care the same way most Americans do under your private health policies.

O RLY?

What restrictions are you talking about with our "private health policies" that you do not suffer from?

The idea that my wife could not get an MRI, for example, if her doctor prescribed one for her is quite alien to me. If he said she needed one, she would go get one under our HMO.

Apparently you guys "notice" some kind of restrictions to your healthcare.

[jimmy olsen]

I can't get MRIs on my legs anymore, too much metal.

This is your medical non sequitur of the day.

I guess you could use MRI to remove all that hardware from your leg.

I think I'd rather just have that leg chopped off.

[Berkut]

Of course not. But I am not claiming that medical care is not rationed in the US.

My claim is that to the extent health care is rationed in Canada, such rationing is not noticeable in the same way it is noticeable in the US.

I would claim that to the extent that health care is rationed in Canada, it is apparently perfectly noticeable, and BB's example shows that to be the case.

I don't think you really know anything about how "noticeable" it is in the US - what example are you driving from?

I am willing to admit my knowledge of Canadian healthcare is pretty spotty - I am just going by what people have told me anecdotally (like BB for example). But it seems like having to wait what seems (from a US perspective) to be a very long time for relatively routine procedures is not completely uncommon.

How noticeable is rationing in the US? How are you measuring this?

[crazy canuck]

O RLY?

What restrictions are you talking about with our "private health policies" that you do not suffer from?

The idea that my wife could not get an MRI, for example, if her doctor prescribed one for her is quite alien to me. If he said she needed one, she would go get one under our HMO.

Apparently you guys "notice" some kind of restrictions to your healthcare.

I really wish you would just read what I have written before....


Correct me if I am wrong but my understanding is that medical procedures that are insured through such things as HMOS need to be approved before the procedure can take place.  If you had been following the thread before you barged in you would have noticed the BB's main complaint about our system is that if the doctor decides the procedure is medically necessary then the health care plan pays for it.  There is no insurance bean counter interposed between the patient and the doctor.

I have no idea what you mean by your last sentence.

[crazy canuck]

Of course not. But I am not claiming that medical care is not rationed in the US.

My claim is that to the extent health care is rationed in Canada, such rationing is not noticeable in the same way it is noticeable in the US.

I would claim that to the extent that health care is rationed in Canada, it is apparently perfectly noticeable, and BB's example shows that to be the case.

I don't think you really know anything about how "noticeable" it is in the US - what example are you driving from?

I am willing to admit my knowledge of Canadian healthcare is pretty spotty - I am just going by what people have told me anecdotally (like BB for example). But it seems like having to wait what seems (from a US perspective) to be a very long time for relatively routine procedures is not completely uncommon.

How noticeable is rationing in the US? How are you measuring this?

Again, I really wish you would actually read the thread before posting.  You might have noticed that I made the point that it is important to compare apples to apples.  Given the mess your system is in the the varying ways health care is delivered I am not sure that is possible.

[Berkut]

O RLY?

What restrictions are you talking about with our "private health policies" that you do not suffer from?

The idea that my wife could not get an MRI, for example, if her doctor prescribed one for her is quite alien to me. If he said she needed one, she would go get one under our HMO.

Apparently you guys "notice" some kind of restrictions to your healthcare.

I really wish you would just read what I have written before....


Correct me if I am wrong but my understanding is that medical procedures that are insured through such things as HMOS need to be approved before the procedure can take place. 

You are wrong. I have gotten innumerable tests or procedures done without any need for pre-approval, and I have an HMO. Blue Choice in fact. Costs a bloody fortune.

I imagine some tests and procedures need pre-approval, like if I wanted to get something elective done - or rather, the HMO will simply refuse to pay for it when the bill comes in, and then the doctor would have to fight with them over it, so the doctor would make sure the HMO agrees ahead of time. I say this in theory of course - I have never actualy experienced this (or as you might say, I've never "noticed" it).

Something as routine as an MRI though? Perhaps some HMO require approval for things like that, but mine certainly does not. Both my kids have gotten a variety of expensive medical tests done simply on the order of their doctors, and without any need for prior approval.

Your comment about BB's complaint makes no sense. Why would he complina that if the docotor decides something is necessary, then the health care paln pays for it? I thought his complaint was that they laughed when his wife thought she should get an MRI to check on some chronic pain.

If you had been reading my comments before you barged into the thread, you would know this. If you bothered asking about how the US system actually works, rather than your mythical version of the system, you would not look so silly as to claim that there is some bean counter approving every blood test your doctor orders for you.

Is this just you trying to pick a fight with me? I suspect so - maybe you should just pretend not to read my posts if they cause you to become so hostile and irrational. I don't really mind that you go on this personal jihad every time I respond to something you post, but I think others find it distracting and annoying.

[Berkut]

Again, I really wish you would actually read the thread before posting.  You might have noticed that I made the point that it is important to compare apples to apples.  Given the mess your system is in the the varying ways health care is delivered I am not sure that is possible.

Ahh, so when you compare the wonderful Candaian system to the "mess" of a US system, it isn't actually possible to make such a comparison, because the US system is in fact such a mess. That is a strong argument, it goes well with the little snide comments about reading the thread.

See my previous comment - you don't HAVE to get personal and unpleasant you know. It is possible to just talk about stuff, compare systems, discuss problems with the US system, and the Canadian system, see how one works better than the other in some ways, etc., etc., without turning it into some kind of internet uber-nationalistic dick waving contest.

Give it a try sometime - you might be surprised how pleasant the result can be.