[Gay] Gay News from Around the Gay World That is Gay

[Josquius]

Womens sports being created as a segregated field was less due to the lower physical capacity of women, and far more due to gender differences and the squickiness of men and women in varying states of undress getting sweaty and physical together.
These remain valid no matter whether its a cisgender or a transgender woman you're talking about. Having trans-women in mens sports goes against why womens sports exist in the first place.

Well then that is stupid and we should get rid of men's and women's sports. I have played sports with men and women for years and this has never once been an issue. And again if you just find the other sex's body disgusting and are irrationally unable to function around it, then why would it matter if the person in that body is a transman or a woman? Why are we honoring and enabling irrational bullshit around gender, by segregating them, while also demanding it not exist and we be inclusive in another area? Why is one irrationality valid and the other not valid?

I don't know though. It seems absurd to believe that WNBA players could easily make and play for NBA teams and make millions of dollars but are so disgusted by male bodies they would rather languish in a minor league? Likewise should NBA players be allowed to exclude legitimate competition because they are too grossed out by icky female bodies? But maybe that is not the reason and it is that women have a disadvantage.

What on earth makes you think this?

[Valmy]

And I guess I should mention girls already play for boys sports in high schools all across the country. It is really only the elite sports we are talking about. The amateurs and lower level sports leagues have mixed genders already for a long time, because at that level a physical advantage is much less of a big deal. An athletic woman is still better than a non-athletic man. And not very many people in the leagues I played in all got freaked out about sweating with people with different bodies than them. But granted that is just my experience, to some they just won't play without strict body segregation I am sure. But I question if that number includes serious elite athletes.

All things being equal though, as they are at the elite levels, the XY bodied people have a big advantage.

[Valmy]

What on earth makes you think this?

When I make a big long post discussing different things you need to be more specific about which part you think belongs on another planet.

[Valmy]

Oh and I guess I should say that female coaches and trainers and medical staff exist across men's sports. Nobody seems grossed out by that. So why not other players?

[Josquius]

What on earth makes you think this?

When I make a big long post discussing different things you need to be more specific about which part you think belongs on another planet.

That WNBA players believe they could play in the NBA but they personally are offended by male bodies so don't.

Firstly of course this is a historic innovation. If sports were invented today I doubt this same restriction would apply.
Also rather than the players themselves it far more came from the powers that be, appointed moral guardians of Victorian society. Just look at how in the 20th century they then went onto clamp down on womens sports altogether. I was replying to your assertion of why womens sports actually exist, not why you think they should exist.
Secondly its focussing on a tiny fraction of the people who take part in sports, absolutely high end elites where fitness is maximised and differences in natural genetic makeup really make a difference and there's serious money on the line. This isn't most people's experience with sport on either front.

And I guess I should mention girls already play for boys sports in high schools all across the country. It is really only the elite sports we are talking about. The amateurs and lower level sports leagues have mixed genders already for a long time, because at that level a physical advantage is much less of a big deal. An athletic woman is still better than a non-athletic man. And not very many people in the leagues I played in all got freaked out about sweating with people with different bodies than them. But granted that is just my experience, to some they just won't play without strict body segregation I am sure. But I question if that number includes serious elite athletes.

All things being equal though, as they are at the elite levels, the XY bodied people have a big advantage.

Except we aren't.
Thats exactly my original point of why its such an annoying binary that gets presented.
Hard right transphobes and their useful idiots come in with a stupid theoretical about how a B list male sports person will just get a sex change then destroy the womens game hence all trans people should be completely banned from sports.
There's valid sports/science nerdery discussion to be had about what should be used to define a woman for the purposes of elite sport, quite where the line is drawn, etc....
But thats not what you see all the time about this issue, for instance in the poll results Sheilbh posted. Instead its all or nothing completely ban trans women from ever touching a ball (or running or...OK, I just wanted  to make a joke about them touching balls. It failed) or have zero regulations.

[Barrister]

And I guess I should mention girls already play for boys sports in high schools all across the country. It is really only the elite sports we are talking about. The amateurs and lower level sports leagues have mixed genders already for a long time, because at that level a physical advantage is much less of a big deal. An athletic woman is still better than a non-athletic man. And not very many people in the leagues I played in all got freaked out about sweating with people with different bodies than them. But granted that is just my experience, to some they just won't play without strict body segregation I am sure. But I question if that number includes serious elite athletes.

All things being equal though, as they are at the elite levels, the XY bodied people have a big advantage.

So in my kids minor hockey girls play on boys teams all the time.  But there are also some all-girls teams out there too.

These kids are all pre-pubescent so physical advantage has nothing to do with it.  But socially some girls do prefer to just play with other girls, and share the locker room with other girls.

[Valmy]

That WNBA players believe they could play in the NBA but they personally are offended by male bodies but don't.

Yeah I absolutely believe it is because they know they couldn't compete because they are at a physical disadvantage. But hey if I am wrong about that, I would be delighted. It would make this whole issue go away.

And if any of them DO think they could make it in the NBA or one of the men's basketball minor leagues instead I hope they get that opportunity.

Except we aren't.
Hard right transphobes and their useful idiots come in with a stupid theoretical about how a B list male sports person will just get a sex change then destroy the womens game hence all trans people should be completely banned from sports.

Ok but that is a legitimate, not theoretical nor stupid, concern if we are talking about why we segregate sports to begin with. Of course transphobes just don't want transwomen to exist so of course they are going to poach a legitimate concern and then dishonestly use it.

But thats not what you see all the time about this issue, for instance in the poll results Sheilbh posted. Instead its all or nothing completely ban trans women from ever touching a ball (or running or...OK, I just wanted  to make a joke about them touching balls. It failed) or have zero regulations.

Well that is what we often face with these issues. Obviously I want regulations if we are going to keep segregated sports. It should be based on your physical characteristics whether you play in XX or XY sports, not your gender because that doesn't make any sense. It looks like we are in complete agreement on that:

There's valid sports/science nerdery discussion to be had about what should be used to define a woman for the purposes of elite sport, quite where the line is drawn, etc....

Totally agree. Except I probably wouldn't use the word "woman" in this context.

[Josquius]

Ok but that is a legitimate, not theoretical nor stupid, concern if we are talking about why we segregate sports to begin with. Of course transphobes just don't want transwomen to exist so of course they are going to poach a legitimate concern and then dishonestly use it.

I disagree. Its a ridiculous concern that hasn't come anywhere close to happening.
The second hint of it does happen- then changing the rules will be a simple matter to stop it happening again. Nobody will be killed or anything serious in the process.
Just look at how quick they reacted to fix the rules with cisgender Caster Semenya due to her genetic advantage.
Just because something is theoretically possible in sport doesn't mean its a huge and really important political issue over and beyond people interested in sports to pre-emptively put a stop to it.

Well that is what we often face with these issues. Obviously I want regulations if we are going to keep segregated sports. It should be based on your physical characteristics whether you play in XX or XY sports, not your gender because that doesn't make any sense. It looks like we are complete agreement on that:

But physical characteristics are gender.
You can't expect amateur sports leagues to have full genetic testing and testosterone level analysis suites. If somebody looks like a woman, acts like a woman, identifies as a woman, is accepted as a woman....they're a woman. Let them play. Thats as far as things go.

Totally agree. Except I probably wouldn't use the word "woman" in this context.

What would you use then?
Female?

[garbon]

I don't see how sports is significantly different from every other part of society. If transwomen are women then the "separate but equal" attitude leaves a bad taste in the mouth. There has always been arguments put forward against equality, but THIS time they are correct? I don't see it.

If transwomen are women, then as soon as you internally accept that they are, the "problem" of having transwomen in women's sports disappears. In the words of En Vogue: free your mind, and the rest will follow.

[viper37]

Ok but that is a legitimate, not theoretical nor stupid, concern if we are talking about why we segregate sports to begin with. Of course transphobes just don't want transwomen to exist so of course they are going to poach a legitimate concern and then dishonestly use it.

I see the problem the other way: the woke and trans-activitsts crowd will label anyone who criticize their positions as transphobe, as a way to shut any kind of logical and scientifical discussion that wil contradict their point.

Kinda like the Talibans, pro-women and pro-science, as long as it does not contradict their vision of Islam.

Well that is what we often face with these issues. Obviously I want regulations if we are going to keep segregated sports. It should be based on your physical characteristics whether you play in XX or XY sports, not your gender because that doesn't make any sense. It looks like we are in complete agreement on that:

More on the level of performance you can offer.  The NHL does not ban women from joining a team.  Realistically, only one woman made it, as a goalie, for one game.  She couldn't compete with men of that caliber, even if she was a very decent goalie in LHJMQ, and later in the East Coast League, I think.

So, either we lower the physical standards required and ban physical play to integrate all women who want to play the NHL, or we keep it segregated: women's hockey and men's hockey, as with the IHF.

[Valmy]

I don't see how sports is significantly different from every other part of society. If transwomen are women then the "separate but equal" attitude leaves a bad taste in the mouth. There has always been arguments put forward against equality, but THIS time they are correct? I don't see it.

If transwomen are women, then as soon as you internally accept that they are, the "problem" of having transwomen in women's sports disappears. In the words of En Vogue: free your mind, and the rest will follow.

Sports is significantly different because it is one of the few areas in society that is segregated for the purposes of fair competition. Name me another area where that is true. And even if you can I do think that makes it significantly different from the rest of society. That is not how society normally works, it is not typically a physical competition.

I accept that trans-women are women. But how does that make the problem disappear? In fact it introduces the problem. If women are not being segregated because of fairness of competition but because of gender identity than continuing to segregate them makes no sense from a competitive point of view, in fact it creates the separate but equal problem that puts bad taste in mouths. If instead we have segregated sport for reasons of physical difference and fairness then clearly they should not be called women's sports and if we are to continue segregation it should be on that basis, on the basis of fairness not identity.

Besides what about gender-fluid people? Surely they should be competing based on their physical characteristics as there are no "gender-fluid" sports.

[Malthus]

How about instead of men's and women's teams, you have one set of teams that are only for those with a Y chromosome, and the other for those without a Y chromosome?

Men and women with a Y chromosome in one set, men and women without one in the other.

Problem: solved?

[Valmy]

How about instead of men's and women's teams, you have one set of teams that are only for those with a Y chromosome, and the other for those without a Y chromosome?

Men and women with a Y chromosome in one set, men and women without one in the other.

Problem: solved?

I am no expert on how all this chromosome business works but theoretically I think something like that would solve the problem.

[Jacob]

I am no expert on how all this chromosome business works but theoretically I think something like that would solve the problem.

All it would require is that people start thinking of "has Y chromosome" and "does not have Y chromosome" as important signifiers that are more socially relevant than "male" and "female".

I'm thinking that it might be a little while before that catches on, in spite of how logical it is.

[Josquius]

How about instead of men's and women's teams, you have one set of teams that are only for those with a Y chromosome, and the other for those without a Y chromosome?

Men and women with a Y chromosome in one set, men and women without one in the other.

Problem: solved?

No. It relies on the misconception sex is a simple binary based purely on xx/xy.
Cisgender xy women are more plentiful than many realise.
Then there's various other chromosome patterns. Not all of which automatically lead to severe disabilities.

Certainly it's curious with all the techniques professional sports have tried to decide if someone is a woman or not they haven't tried this one.
It could just be down to difficulty? Which is another issue...