[Gay] Gay News from Around the Gay World That is Gay

[Sheilbh]

Interesting - and useful reminder that media discourse is, very often, just that:


Also - bloody hell France I wonder if this is like the vaccine polling were 70% of French people were like "I hate the vaccine and I will not take it" before all taking the vaccine and we have to, reluctantly, conclude the French are all edgelords.

[Razgovory]

I am not supportive of anyone anywhere for any reason.

[Sheilbh]

I am not supportive of anyone anywhere for any reason.

"I'll put you down as a Lib Dem."

[The Larch]

Interesting - and useful reminder that media discourse is, very often, just that:


Also - bloody hell France I wonder if this is like the vaccine polling were 70% of French people were like "I hate the vaccine and I will not take it" before all taking the vaccine and we have to, reluctantly, conclude the French are all edgelords.

Wooo, we're #1! 

[Sheilbh]

Also lots more gays in Spain/people who know gays - can confirm from my experience as a visitor too

[Josquius]

Perfectly demonstrates the point that the culture war is a load of bollocks.
It's not two sides, the transphobes and the nut cases who want people to be able to declare themselves women then do whatever on a whim. Its the transphobes and everyone else who really aren't that bothered if someone is trans.

[Razgovory]

I am not supportive of anyone anywhere for any reason.

"I'll put you down as a Lib Dem."

[Barrister]

Interesting - and useful reminder that media discourse is, very often, just that:

I forget the name of the phenomena, but there is a known phenomenon where people will tell pollsters what they think the pollster wants to hear, rather than what they truly believe, on certain hot-button issues like this.

Pollsters do have methods of trying to get around that problem, but with only limited success.

[HVC]

Also lots more gays in Spain/people who know gays - can confirm from my experience as a visitor too

Just because they speak with a lisp doesn't mean they're gay

[Sheilbh]

Interesting - and useful reminder that media discourse is, very often, just that:

I forget the name of the phenomena, but there is a known phenomenon where people will tell pollsters what they think the pollster wants to hear, rather than what they truly believe, on certain hot-button issues like this.

Pollsters do have methods of trying to get around that problem, but with only limited success.

Tell the French

Edit: Or to be more specific for the UK at least there's interesting polling on what people actually mean by being "supportive" or "pro-trans" and it's basically quite nuanced - but not as polarised as either side of the discourse would suggest:

[Josquius]

Grr, that bloody sports question. So bloody binary. The solution to tackling this is to toss out the idea that the nuclear option is the only possible solution.
Trans women should be free to take part in womens sports by default. They're women. They can do anything women can.
This doesn't mean sports governing bodies should be banned from defining exactly who is a woman as they've been trying to do for decades through various means. Obviously totally different situation when you're looking at the Olympics vs. a sunday league kickabout.

[Valmy]

Trans women should be free to take part in womens sports by default. They're women. They can do anything women can.

Yeah but its misnamed. "Womens" Sports were not created because different genders need different sports leagues. That doesn't make any sense. When people change their gender identification it doesn't change their ability to do sports at all. Should we create a new area of sports for gender fluid people? If an athlete in "men's" or "women's" sports suddenly came out as gender fluid should they be kicked out? No. Of course not. That person wouldn't suddenly have different athletic capabilities, it is not a magical spell.

It is like the concept of women's health or gynecology. This was not created because people who identify in different ways literally have different bodies and health needs.

These are archaic names that were created when the assumption was that sex = gender. But since that is no longer our understanding it seems ridiculous to then go back and pretend that was never our understanding and therefore everybody who identifies as a woman needs a "gynecologist" or should be participating in "women's" sports. That strikes me as engaging in some kind of delusion or play pretend that the past was the same as today.

[Josquius]

Yeah but its misnamed. "Womens" Sports were not created because different genders need different sports leagues. That doesn't make any sense. When people change their gender identification it doesn't change their ability to do sports at all. Should we create a new area of sports for gender fluid people? If an athlete in "men's" or "women's" sports suddenly came out as gender fluid should they be kicked out? No. Of course not. That person wouldn't suddenly have different athletic capabilities, it is not a magical spell.

It is like the concept of women's health or gynecology. This was not created because people who identify in different ways literally have different bodies and health needs.

These are archaic names that were created when the assumption was that sex = gender. But since that is no longer our understanding it seems ridiculous to then go back and pretend that was never our understanding and therefore everybody who identifies as a woman needs a "gynecologist" or should be participating in "women's" sports. That strikes me as engaging in some kind of delusion or play pretend that the past was the same as today.

I get where you're coming from but I don't think the gynecology comparison works.

Womens sports being created as a segregated field was less due to the lower physical capacity of women, and far more due to gender differences and the squickiness of men and women in varying states of undress getting sweaty and physical together.
These remain valid no matter whether its a cisgender or a transgender woman you're talking about. Having trans-women in mens sports goes against why womens sports exist in the first place.

As said that top level sports governing bodies place boundaries on who qualifies as a woman and who doesn't is fine. Exactly where these boundaries lie is hard to say, they're constantly being adjusted. They lead to many false positives with cisgender women being banned, however if a trans woman qualifies as within the bounds then she is entitled to compete just like anyone else- though needs noting its very likely a large number of trans women don't qualify according to the rules of many sports, and they're continually evolving. If trans women entering a sport starts to become an actual issue its more than likely they'd tighten up the rules to exclude them.

Always forgotten in this issue however....in sports in general this isn't the default. If a random girl wants to go join a girl's basketball club they don't insist on making her take a testosterone test before hand. She's a girl so she plays basketball with other girls. Simple.
The concept of sportsmanship is key in all this. For the overwhelming majority of people taking part in sports its not about the winning, its about the taking part. Whether someone was once a man thus is stronger than 90% of women is irrelevant to this.
Its ridiculous to get upset about the prospect of Andy Murray deciding he is now Alice Murray just so he can win Wimbledon again and launching a full nuclear "OK, no transwomen in any sports ever" as the only possible alternative to such a mad theoretical scenario.

[Darth Wagtaros]

Yeah but its misnamed. "Womens" Sports were not created because different genders need different sports leagues. That doesn't make any sense. When people change their gender identification it doesn't change their ability to do sports at all. Should we create a new area of sports for gender fluid people? If an athlete in "men's" or "women's" sports suddenly came out as gender fluid should they be kicked out? No. Of course not. That person wouldn't suddenly have different athletic capabilities, it is not a magical spell.

It is like the concept of women's health or gynecology. This was not created because people who identify in different ways literally have different bodies and health needs.

These are archaic names that were created when the assumption was that sex = gender. But since that is no longer our understanding it seems ridiculous to then go back and pretend that was never our understanding and therefore everybody who identifies as a woman needs a "gynecologist" or should be participating in "women's" sports. That strikes me as engaging in some kind of delusion or play pretend that the past was the same as today.

I get where you're coming from but I don't think the gynecology comparison works.

Womens sports being created as a segregated field was less due to the lower physical capacity of women, and far more due to gender differences and the squickiness of men and women in varying states of undress getting sweaty and physical together.
These remain valid no matter whether its a cisgender or a transgender woman you're talking about. Having trans-women in mens sports goes against why womens sports exist in the first place.

As said that top level sports governing bodies place boundaries on who qualifies as a woman and who doesn't is fine. Exactly where these boundaries lie is hard to say, they're constantly being adjusted. They lead to many false positives with cisgender women being banned, however if a trans woman qualifies as within the bounds then she is entitled to compete just like anyone else- though needs noting its very likely a large number of trans women don't qualify according to the rules of many sports, and they're continually evolving. If trans women entering a sport starts to become an actual issue its more than likely they'd tighten up the rules to exclude them.

Always forgotten in this issue however....in sports in general this isn't the default. If a random girl wants to go join a girl's basketball club they don't insist on making her take a testosterone test before hand. She's a girl so she plays basketball with other girls. Simple.
The concept of sportsmanship is key in all this. For the overwhelming majority of people taking part in sports its not about the winning, its about the taking part. Whether someone was once a man thus is stronger than 90% of women is irrelevant to this.
Its ridiculous to get upset about the prospect of Andy Murray deciding he is now Alice Murray just so he can win Wimbledon again and launching a full nuclear "OK, no transwomen in any sports ever" as the only possible alternative to such a mad theoretical scenario.

Silly ass slippery slope and false equivalencies are part of every day life now.  So most people would point out the one in a million chance as the reason for the crusade in the first place.

[Valmy]

Womens sports being created as a segregated field was less due to the lower physical capacity of women, and far more due to gender differences and the squickiness of men and women in varying states of undress getting sweaty and physical together.
These remain valid no matter whether its a cisgender or a transgender woman you're talking about. Having trans-women in mens sports goes against why womens sports exist in the first place.

Well then that is stupid and we should get rid of men's and women's sports. I have played sports with men and women for years and this has never once been an issue. And again if you just find the other sex's body disgusting and are irrationally unable to function around it, then why would it matter if the person in that body is a transman or a woman? Why are we honoring and enabling irrational bullshit around gender, by segregating them, while also demanding it not exist and we be inclusive in another area? Why is one irrationality valid and the other not valid?

I don't know though. It seems absurd to believe that WNBA players could easily make and play for NBA teams and make millions of dollars but are so disgusted by male bodies they would rather languish in a minor league? Likewise should NBA players be allowed to exclude legitimate competition because they are too grossed out by icky female bodies? But maybe that is not the reason and it is that women have a disadvantage.