[Gay] Gay News from Around the Gay World That is Gay

[Razgovory]

But we are expected to act as if they might - or at least play along out of respect. From an objective point of view, any religious belief is a crock of shit and delusion, unless you believe in one - if you are not Christian, someone telling you they believe Jesus was born out of virgin, raised dead from graves, walked on water, and came back after dying is no different then someone telling you they believe they have magical elves living in their sock drawer - but yet you are, by and large, expected to respect their feelings and not to deride them the way these people deride Bruce/Catleen Jenner's belief in what her gender is.

Then you fall very short of expectations since you have said you don't respect such people and called them "stupid".  Why should someone respect someone's personal fantasy that is clearly and demonstrably not true?  Let me ask you, if you run into a man on the street and say "excuse me, sir" and he screams at you that he's actually a woman what is the correct thought pattern?  That this is a transgender person? That this person is suffering a delusion? That you really need to get glasses?  That you ran into a person wearing a very inept disguise?  That you are a terrible person?  That they are just fucking with you?

Do you encounter such situations offer? Because to me this seems like something very unusual so not sure why we need to have a rule for that.

Wouldn't want to make a faux pas, now what is the correct thought pattern?

[Eddie Teach]

Assume he's an ugly woman and say "sorry Ma'am" as you walk away.

[Razgovory]

Assume he's an ugly woman and say "sorry Ma'am" as you walk away.

That's an action not a thought pattern.

[Martinus]

As Peter Wiggin pointed out, it is not uncommon to take an actual woman for a man either - so behave the same.

[Razgovory]

As Peter Wiggin pointed out, it is not uncommon to take an actual woman for a man either - so behave the same.

No, not behave what should I think.  Also read my other post about honesty.

[Syt]

As Peter Wiggin pointed out, it is not uncommon to take an actual woman for a man either - so behave the same.

Some make a career of it. #tildaswinton

(TBF, she looks more androgynous than male)

[Eddie Teach]

She looks alright when she grows her hair out, like in Michael Clayton.

[Martinus]

It's about honestly.

Whose honesty? The transgendered person's or the beholder of one? I am not sure what you mean.

We can talk about accepting a person for who they identify themselves as, but at a sexual level it just won't work for most people.  A straight man is unlikely to want to have sex with another man even if that man is wearing women's clothing.  At this fundamental and basic level this pretense of acceptance falls apart.  I don't know if it's the same with gay men, but I assume that all things being equal they would prefer to have sex with their preferred gender rather then a person of the physically opposite gender that has decided they are different one.

First of all, I think you are using the word "gender" to describe "sex", which is quite confusing. Are you talking about biological (sex) or cultural (gender) expression?

Secondly, are we talking about pre-op transgendered people, post-op transgendered people or transvestites? Your sentence about "a man wearing women's clothing" got me confused.

Thirdly, as I already said, there are actually straight men who are into trans women and they are not gay or even bisexual (and in any case sexuality can be quite fluid and does not often fit neatly into boxes).

Fourthly, I am willing to bet there are women that most straight men would not want to have sex with or be sexually attracted to them (I know there are men about whom I feel that way) - so this is hardly a good argument, especially against accepting transgendered people on a social level.

Fifthly, as far as I understand a person cannot "decide" to be of a gender different from their biological sex any more than he or she can "decide" to be gay or straight - so you are using the same kind of rhetorics of choice that homophobes use against gay people.

Pretend we do a test on you.  I show you pictures of naked women, men and transsexuals who have had no operations.  Assuming same general level of attractiveness, no make up and standing in the same positions with no knowledge of the naked individuals beside the photographs I show you, which group (or groups), would you find sexually arousing?  My guess is your choices will be skewed toward the men, and transsexual women which would be physically indistinguishable.  At this basic level you show discrimination.  You can say you are blind to these differences, but when it comes down to it, you aren't.  You have to be cued into by other factors (such as clothing, make up, voice, hairstyle "smell", or whatever).  If you really accepted them as the gender they claim to be but physically are not you would not need these cues.

Again, not sure what the point is - show me a picture of Rush Limbaugh and Angelina Jolie, and I probably pick the latter - especially if that means a threesome with Brad Pitt.

[Martinus]

As Peter Wiggin pointed out, it is not uncommon to take an actual woman for a man either - so behave the same.

No, not behave what should I think.  Also read my other post about honesty.

You can't control what you think - but civilisation is about behaviour, not thoughts. Such as most people are naturally racist, but it is bad form to show it. The only way to change what one thinks is through exposure.

[Razgovory]

I don't agree that most people are naturally racist.  So I guess I learned something about you tonight.  To act in one way and think another is dishonest.  Thought and action should be one.  To be dishonest is generally regarded as bad.

Now, I didn't get a degree in gender studies so maybe I'm not up to the tortured terminology or the counterintutive theories on the cultural gender and sex.  I'm sorry I confused you.  Presume for a moment you talking to someone who doesn't read a lot of Pink News and I'll try and check my privileged.


My thought experiment was to demonstrate the innate dishonesty involved here.  While you can try to make yourself believe something about someone gender or sex or whatever, your libido is not fooled.  I would suggest that this your true feeling, and your brain is trying to tell your dick something that it knows is not actually true for whatever reason.

But I'll tell you what.  We can both try and be more civilized persons.  I will accept what ever the fuck you want me to do so on this topic if, you do the civilized thing and every time religion comes up on this board you state how lovely it is and how much you respect their faith.  And I mean Every time.  Together we can both become more civilized.

[Martinus]

The difference is that, of course, transgendered people do not try to tell other people how to live their lives - whereas religious people do. I have a lot of respect, actually, for mystics and others in touch with their divine - I don't tolerate those having the audacity to tell me that *their* idea of the divine (with whom, more often than not, they have very little actual connection whatsoever) somehow has authority to say how *I* should live my life.

[LaCroix]

The difference is that, of course, transgendered people do not try to tell other people how to live their lives

to be fair, many extremist transgenders do try to tell people how to live their lives. the glitter bombing stuff and other "political activism" is pretty insane. whether it's religion, transgenderism, veganism, etc., some people who wrap their identities around a belief/aspect of their life engage in complete asshole activities that ruin things for the rest.

[garbon]

There aren't even that many transgendered people to speak of, so I think you are pushing it when you talk about this sub-segment that is so pushy and terrible.

[Martinus]

The difference is that, of course, transgendered people do not try to tell other people how to live their lives

to be fair, many extremist transgenders do try to tell people how to live their lives. the glitter bombing stuff and other "political activism" is pretty insane. whether it's religion, transgenderism, veganism, etc., some people who wrap their identities around a belief/aspect of their life engage in complete asshole activities that ruin things for the rest.

I don't think this is really comparable, as what I am talking about goes beyond just being shrill, obnoxious and oversensitive.

For transgendered people I am not sure a direct parallel can even be possible as I can't imagine what kind of laws transgendered community could push for that would put it on par with the religious pushing for laws banning abortion or same sex marriage for people who are not members of their particular religion (I guess a certain parallel can be drawn between hate speech laws and blasphemy laws - for the record, I am opposed to both - but that's it).

For vegans, I guess until they try to push for laws banning eating meat, there are not at the same level as the religious either.

[Admiral Yi]

The most out there demand I've heard from trannies is some want other people to pick up the tab.