Fallout Continues at Univ. of Oklahoma Over Racist Frat Video

[Valmy]

Doh sorry for the long Languish-style paragraph-by-paragraph response there.

[CountDeMoney]

Ed Anger was Alpha Beta rush chairman 3 years running.

[grumbler]

Actually I was finding his arguments convincing and thought we were having a nice discussion.  But thanks for you input.  Can you not be a jerk for once?  Maybe?

I guess I was wording it too nicely when i asked you to tone down the grade school in the "traumatized Jews" thread, so you are bowing me off. 

Okay.  I can live with that.  Pity, though.  You'd be a great contributor if you put some thought into what you wrote.

[Barrister]

Ed Anger was Alpha Beta rush chairman 3 years running.

Two Revenge of the Nerds" references in the same day?  You trying for some kind of record?

[jimmy olsen]

At what university did you find this true?

Well we had problems with this at Southwestern University.  When I arrived there was a huge scandal where members of one of the frats were screaming racist things to a black woman on their property...who was a member of the board of trustees.  Then a major providing minors with booze bust on one of the others.  And now fresh in the news a major rape conspiracy where the frat drugged a bunch of women at one of their parties and then raped them all.  Needless to say, as an alumni, I have been demanding that frat be removed from campus and have their charter revoked.  Too long in coming IMO.

Link!? 

EDIT: Never mind, already provided. Crazy shit 

[Ed Anger]

I'm lovin' it. The song, not the rape.

[dps]

If those values are vile well then...is it the frat or the members that are responsible?  Does it matter?

I think it does matter.  If it's the frat that's responsible, you can in theory end the problem by banning the frat.  If it's the members, they'll probably continue their behavior without being in a formal organization.

[sbr]

If an unattached group of friends get into a a drunken bar fight they are just some idiots.  If they are wearing Greek letters on their shirts every other person who does or has ever worn those letters is a terrible human being.

That's the same for any visible affiliation. If you are part of a group that stands apart from regular society - whether you belong to an ethnic or religious minority, to a youth subculture of some sort, clearly display some sort of political allegiance - then yeah you are not only going to be judged more harshly than "undifferentiated people", your actions are going to reflect on the group you are part on.

That's generally how it works.

Yep for sure.

That post was a hot mess, I got distracted while typing it then came back and tried to change some things, then lost interest and just hit 'Post' to be done with it.

I was responding to Valmy questioning a group's right to exist because of the public's incorrect perception of the group.  I don't think there are many groups that get as bad a rap as college fraternities do, and the vast majority of it is not true.  The major scandal that pops end every year or so it always reported while all of the good stuff they do is never mentioned.  I suppose they could go out and advertise all of the fundraising and charity/volunteer work they do but that sort of defeats the purpose.  They don't do it to get praise from outsiders, they do it because it should be done.

[sbr]

Doh sorry for the long Languish-style paragraph-by-paragraph response there.

It's all good, I have mostly lost interest though, so hopefully you don't mind me not responding in kind.  I think we are mostly going in circles.  I was mostly responding to the tone of your posts

Kind of dumbfounded that even frat boys are that stupid.  Not surprised they are actually that evil but amazed they openly admitted it.

And therefore I am not surprised an Oklahoma Frat had such vile things to say on the subject of race.  The frats in question serve no other purpose than social bonding and cultivating certain values.  If those values are vile well then...is it the frat or the members that are responsible?  Does it matter?

Sure.  But how productive is it to have organizations that exist where the perception is their purpose is to facilitate that?  Not a big fan of single gender organizations anyway.

You came across as someone who thought fraternities have vile values, with stupid and evil members and question their existence because of the general public's perceptions.  Blaming an entire organization, or even the overall idea of that organization because of the actions of some 18-22 year old kids doesn't make much sense to me.  If there are specific actions or problems then address those, and if that means an entire chapter, or even national organization, were to get nuked then that's fine but don't vilify 9 million mostly good kids because a minuscule number are bad people.

[CountDeMoney]

Grade Point
Is SAE racist? Or did a racist chant on a bus tarnish 15,000 brothers?
Washington Post

As a racist video from the University of Oklahoma's Sigma Alpha Epsilon chapter went viral Sunday night, one comment echoed again and again: They knew all the words.

The video apparently shows a bus full of SAE brothers wearing tuxedos in a celebratory mood chanting what sounds like: "There will never be a n—— SAE/There will never be a n—– SAE/You can hang 'em from a tree, but it will never start with me/There will never be a n—– SAE."

As people struggled to understand, many asked whether this was an isolated incident or a symbol of a much larger, systemic, culture of racism. Many found a pattern at SAE, one of the country's largest and most influential fraternities, pointing to everything from the fraternity's Web site to a Confederate flag at one of its houses to a series of racial incidents over the years at chapters around the country. Others said the 15,000 current members of SAE are in no way represented by the events at OU.

But there was a unified chorus: There is a problem at this chapter now.

The fraternity's national headquarters quickly apologized, condemned the video, closed its University of Oklahoma chapter and suspended all of the members from the fraternity. The university's president responded swiftly as well, speaking against racism, joining a rally on campus Monday, and then expelling two students who led the chant Tuesday. (Some criticized that expulsion as a violation of free speech at a public university.)

The video also had an immediate effect on Oklahoma's image. Oklahoma Sooners football recruit Jean Delance, a four-star offensive lineman who committed to play football at the Big 12 school in November, visited the campus in Norman, Okla., with his mother this past weekend.

Then he saw the video. He withdrew his commitment.

"Very uneducated people," Delance told CBS 11 in Dallas-Fort Worth on Monday. "It was just very disturbing to me. I didn't like it."

Some students who know one of the two SAE members who were expelled identified him as a 19-year-old freshman from Dallas who attended the Jesuit College Preparatory School, a prestigious, private, all-boys school located in north Dallas that is 69 percent white. Officials with that school said Tuesday that it appears a former student there was in the racist video. The school did not publicly identify the student.

"In the recent video regarding OU and the SAE fraternity it appears that a graduate from Jesuit Dallas is leading the racist chant," the Jesuit school's president, Mike Earsing, said in a statement. "I am appalled by the actions in the video and extremely hurt by the pain this has caused our community. It is unconscionable and very sad that in 2015 we still live in a society where this type of bigotry and racism takes place."

Efforts to reach the student Tuesday through an Oklahoma University e-mail account were unsuccessful, and no one answered a telephone number for his family residence in Dallas.

Late Tuesday, that student — Parker Rice — and the family of the second student, Levi Pettit, issued public apologies for their participation in the chant. Rice, through his father, told The Dallas Morning News that the event was fueled by alcohol and that he joined in on a chant he was taught.

"I am deeply sorry for what I did Saturday night. It was wrong and reckless. I made a horrible mistake by joining into the singing and encouraging others to do the same," Rice said, according to the statement. "On Monday, I withdrew from the university, and sadly, at this moment our family is not able to be in our home because of threatening calls as well as frightening talk on social media.

"I know everyone wants to know why or how this happened. I admit it likely was fueled by alcohol consumed at the house before the bus trip, but that's not an excuse. Yes, the song was taught to us, but that too doesn't work as an explanation. It's more important to acknowledge what I did and what I didn't do. I didn't say no, and I clearly dismissed an important value I learned at my beloved high school, Dallas Jesuit. We were taught to be 'Men for Others.' I failed in that regard, and in those moments, I also completely ignored the core values and ethics I learned from my parents and others."

The statements did not address who taught the students the chant or why.

The same night the racist video surfaced, a Confederate flag was displayed in the SAE house at Oklahoma State University — about an hour and a half north, in Stillwater, Okla. — clearly visible from outside, the student newspaper The O'Colly reported.

They quoted an e-mail from Chris Bringaze, the chapter president: "'A brother who lives in our house displayed the Confederate flag in his personal room,' Bringaze said. 'Sigma Alpha Epsilon does not endorse the Confederate flag nationally nor do we endorse it as a chapter. In addition, the flag has never been a symbol of our fraternity. My fellow chapter leaders and I have asked the brother to remove the flag from his room.'"

He also said, according to the paper: "'Sigma Alpha Epsilon is aware of the video and is both shocked and appalled at what we have seen. Those types of behaviors are not consistent with our values whatsoever.'"

SAE was founded 159 years ago in Alabama, and in a detailed SAE page describing its long history, certain phrases stood out to some in light of the accusations in Oklahoma. Among them is a description of SAE as "the only national fraternity founded in the antebellum South," and boasts of how of its 400 or so members during the Civil War "369 went to war for the Confederate States and seven for the Union Army."

A natural statistic for a group based in Alabama, or a sign that the fraternity was holding its history as an important principle for its future?

SAE's national organization said it almost immediately validated that members of its Oklahoma chapter participated in the video and acted within hours to shut the chapter down.

"This type of racist behavior will not be tolerated and is not consistent with the values and morals of our fraternity," SAE leaders said in a statement. "This is absolutely not who we are. Sigma Alpha Epsilon is not a racist, sexist or bigoted fraternity."

In the Greek-letter world, SAE is a powerhouse, with nearly 250 chapters and colonies across the country and roughly 200,000 living alumni, according to the fraternity. That national reach is what concerns many who have argued in recent days that the video could be a sign of something more pervasive. But experts said that what happens at one school might not be representative of the fraternity as a whole.

"They are traditionally very strong at most of the campuses they're on," said Alan D. DeSantis, a communication professor at the University of Kentucky and author of a book about Greek campus life. "Strong in numbers and prestige."

DeSantis, who was a member of the Sigma Pi fraternity at James Madison University, said in recent years he has served as a faculty adviser to the SAE chapter at Kentucky. He said that it is difficult to generalize about behavior of any fraternity's members nationally because the culture of their local chapters can vary significantly from one school to another. He also said the organizations can run into trouble when they don't have enough adult supervision.

"The way we manage Greek life is very dangerous," he said. "The system isn't set up in a way where there is any oversight."

DeSantis said that the incident in Oklahoma "so easily could have happened anywhere in America, and not just in the Greek system. It easily could have happened with a group of buddies sitting on the back of a pickup truck that never went to college."

SAE is not the only well-known national fraternity with Confederate roots: The Kappa Alpha Order honors Robert E. Lee as its spirtual founder.

On Reddit, someone posted a month ago about a similar chant allegedly heard from SAE brothers at the University of Texas.

And over the years, there have been more than a handful of racist incidents reported at campuses across the country involving SAE brothers and chapters, including parties with themes that played off of ugly stereotypes of black people. In 2002, Syracuse suspended the chapter after an SAE brother went to a bar with his face painted black.

Many of those resurfaced on social media this week.

    I'm an #OU graduate. There were issues with #SAE when I was a student there 20 years ago. http://t.co/kxWWnKhWtq

    — Omar L. Gallaga (@omarg) March 10, 2015

SAE, in its statement, said that it is investigating other reports of inappropriate acts, but the fraternity also said that there is nothing in its history or tradition that would support racism or bigotry.

"Several other incidents with chapters or members have been brought to the attention of the headquarters staff and leaders, and each of those instances will be investigated for further action," according to the fraternity. "Some reports have alleged that the racist chant in the video is part of a Sigma Alpha Epsilon tradition, which is completely false. The fraternity has a number of songs that have been in existence for more than a century, but the chant is in no way endorsed by the organization nor part of any education whatsoever."

But some fraternity brothers, and former brothers, are wondering if there is a pervasive racism there.

William Bruce James, II wrote about his experiences as a black man at SAE at the University of Oklahoma; he said after he pledged there 14 years ago, no other black students joined. He had always wanted to join Omega Psi Phi, a predominantly African American fraternity, and only walked into the SAE chapter because an old friend wanted to check it out.

But he liked it, and he liked the people. He felt comfortable. And some part of him thought it might be good for the other members, too.

    "I knew when I joined that house, that I'd be looked at differently. Why would he want to be in that house? And I knew it would come from both sides.

    "I remember hearing people saying things about S-A-E for having a black member. I remember being shoved into a wall at the school gym by some fellow BLACK MEN who swiped the letters on the front of my shirt and said, 'Whose house is THAT, brother?!'

    "But it's been 14 years since I walked in, and there still hasn't been a third BLACK MAN. I thought we were different. Maybe we weren't. Maybe I was just being hopeful. But I believed. I believed in S-A-E. I believed in the True Gentlemen. I believed my brothers were my brothers....

    "But then I saw that video. I saw that video speaking of lynching me instead of ever letting me sign....

    "You Failed ME! Member 261-057. Your boys sang in unison. They may not know where the song came from or who made it up or even what all the words really mean, but they sing it so often they know all the words whether they want to or not.

    "I wanted to be an Omega. My heroes from television were all Omegas. My cousins are Kappas and Alphas....I went..S-A-E? Shame on me. But hopefully, there will never be another BLACKS-A-E. "

[Valmy]

DeSantis said that the incident in Oklahoma "so easily could have happened anywhere in America, and not just in the Greek system. It easily could have happened with a group of buddies sitting on the back of a pickup truck that never went to college."

Yeah me and my boys are always sitting around singing about committing hate crimes.  Happens everywhere in America everyday.

[jimmy olsen]

Wonder if the students will sue to get reinstated? They'd almost certainly win.

http://www.nytimes.com/2015/03/12/us/expulsion-of-two-oklahoma-students-leads-to-free-speech-debate.html?_r=0

NORMAN, Okla. — The University of Oklahoma's decision to expel two fraternity members who led a racist chant on a bus provoked criticism Wednesday from several legal experts who said that the students' words, however odious, were protected by the First Amendment's guarantee of freedom of speech.

"The courts are very clear that hateful, racist speech is protected by the First Amendment," said Erwin Chemerinsky, a constitutional scholar and dean of the law school at the University of California, Irvine.

Official punishment for speech could be legal if the students' chant constituted a direct threat, leading a reasonable person to fear for his or her safety, or if it seemed likely to provoke an immediate violent response, according to Mr. Chemerinsky and several other legal scholars, liberal and conservative alike.


But in this case, these experts said, there is no evidence of any direct threat or provocation, and as a publicly financed institution, the university is subject to constitutional boundaries.

The University of Oklahoma has been in an uproar since videos surfaced of members of the Sigma Alpha Epsilon fraternity chanting a song Saturday night in which they used racial slurs to boast that they would never accept an African-American member. The song also referred to lynching, with the words "You can hang 'em from a tree." The first video was recorded as fraternity members and their dates rode a bus to a formal event, was later posted online and was discovered and publicized on Sunday by O.U. Unheard, a black student group.

On Tuesday, the university's president, David L. Boren, notified two students who led the singing that "You will be expelled because of your leadership role in leading a racist and exclusionary chant which has created a hostile educational environment for others."

Eugene Volokh, a constitutional law expert at the University of California, Los Angeles, and prominent legal blogger, wrote Wednesday that "similar things could be said about a vast range of other speech" including praise for Muslim groups like Hamas that call for destruction of Israel, which could make Jews uncomfortable, or calls by black students for violent resistance to white police officers, which white students could interpret as hostile.

Despite the legal concerns expressed by many scholars, the university's handling of the incident — including the swift shutting of the Sigma Alpha Epsilon chapter and its fraternity house and the expulsion of the two students — has gained wide support on campus among black and white students.

Students interviewed Wednesday said they backed Mr. Boren's decision to expel the two, focusing in particular on the reference to lynching.

"I think what they said was not just offensive," said Maggie Savage, 20, a sophomore. "If you do anything to make students in a community feel unsafe, you lose the privilege of being able to attend the university."

One of the two students expelled, Parker Rice, 19, a freshman, apologized for his actions in a statement to The Associated Press. He wrote, "I made a horrible mistake by joining into the singing and encouraging others to do the same."

Continue reading the main story Continue reading the main story

Continue reading the main story

In the statement, Mr. Rice said that his family members in Dallas were not able to be in their home because of "threatening calls as well as frightening talk on social media."

The parents of another Dallas-area student seen in the video, Levi Pettit, issued an apology online. "We were as shocked and saddened by this news as anyone," read the statement from Brody and Susan Pettit. "Of course, we are sad for our son — but more importantly, we apologize to the community he has hurt."

The national office of Sigma Alpha Epsilon, in Evanston, Ill., said it planned to expel all members of the Oklahoma chapter from the national organization and that it supported the university's decision to expel the two students.

Mr. Boren, in an interview Monday as he considered what action to take, said that he was examining the relevance of Title VI of the Civil Rights Act of 1964, which prohibits racial discrimination by agencies that receive federal funds and, federal officials have said, forbids creation of a "racially hostile environment" in schools.

But Title VI is addressed to literal discrimination, and statements by students in a private setting do not come near to violating it, said Geoffrey R. Stone, a professor of law at the University of Chicago.

A university could discipline students for disrupting classes with irrelevant or uncivil speech, Mr. Stone said, or otherwise disrupting the operations of the school.

"But it's hard to make that case here," he said of the Oklahoma situation. "The statements were made in the innocuous setting of a bus, and any disruption came from the showing of the video, not from the students' speech," Mr. Stone said.

In a break with most legal experts, Daria Roithmayr, a law professor at the University of Southern California who has written about the interplay of law and racism, said that a plausible argument could be made that the students' action caused a "material disruption" in the university's educational mission and was not protected by the First Amendment.

"The entire university now has to repudiate the bigotry of a fraternity," she said, and for black students, "it's a massive disruption."

The University of Oklahoma has a code of "rights and responsibilities" prohibiting "conduct that is sufficiently severe and pervasive that it alters the conditions of education or employment and creates an environment that a reasonable person would find intimidating, harassing or humiliating."

Whether the Saturday night chant amounted to such a violation, legal experts said, the code could not take precedence over First Amendment rights.

Private universities are not governed by the First Amendment, which applies to governmental actions, and may generally have more leeway to expel or otherwise punish students for speech. But most have codes of conduct and disciplinary procedures that amount to contractual obligations, for administrators and students.

A dispute over punishment in a private university would be "a matter of contract law, rather than constitutional law," and might involve due process of "fundamental fairness" rather than the First Amendment, said John F. Banzhaf III, a professor of public interest law at George Washington University Law School.

[frunk]

SAE was the fraternity with the worst reputation back over 20 years ago when I was in college.  They got into trouble with the administration multiple times while I was there, and I think they came close to being disbanded.

[Valmy]

Wonder if the students will sue to get reinstated? They'd almost certainly win.

Yeah it would be awesome if they could keep their names in the media with a big court case.  That should help with future employment.

[Martinus]

You can't convince me that one group of 80 18-22 year old boys away from home and looking to party and sow their wild oats is going to be worse than another similar group of boys just because the first joined a fraternity.  Maybe fraternities are a bad idea, but it would be because large groups of drunk 18-22 year old boys is a bad thing, whether the writing on their t-shirts is in Greek or any other language.

I think you are wasting your breathe.  I think the anti-greek crowd is far more comfortable with ignorance than enlightenment.

So, your argument that fraternities are not full of assholes and jerks is that you were a member?