Fallout Continues at Univ. of Oklahoma Over Racist Frat Video

[Valmy]

I don't think fraternities are any more evil than any other large collection of 18-22 year old boys.  They may be the largest and most organized group of 18-22 year old boys you will find anywhere, but I think the problem is more about the collection of dummies rather than the umbrella they share.

And therefore I am not surprised an Oklahoma Frat had such vile things to say on the subject of race.  The frats in question serve no other purpose than social bonding and cultivating certain values.  If those values are vile well then...is it the frat or the members that are responsible?  Does it matter?

[sbr]

I don't think fraternities are any more evil than any other large collection of 18-22 year old boys.  They may be the largest and most organized group of 18-22 year old boys you will find anywhere, but I think the problem is more about the collection of dummies rather than the umbrella they share.

That is a good point but frats seem to legitimize a lot of the silliness.

The problem is I can't think of anything to compare to, to decide if one group of young dummies is worse that the other group of young dummies and what makes them worse.  Maybe a sports team, but outside of American football you are talking about a smaller number of dummies.  Outside of the racial portion (which I bet is still there but tempered because the team would be more diverse) I bet the average American college football team would give the average fraternity a run for there money in silliness and shenanigans.

I think it is mostly mob mentality and group think among the very worst demographic group that causes things like this, not the fraternity.  I could be wrong, and there may be some chapters or campuses that have a culture that fosters it, but even back in the late 80s and early 90s things were changing.  Risk management and liability were a big deal even back then, I can't imagine how hard they hammer that stuff into kids' heads these days.  It probably just gets ignored because large groups of young men do whatever the hell they want. #yolo

[Siege]

Why is Syt so happy?
Did he find a dick sneaking into his anus or somethin?

[sbr]

I don't think fraternities are any more evil than any other large collection of 18-22 year old boys.  They may be the largest and most organized group of 18-22 year old boys you will find anywhere, but I think the problem is more about the collection of dummies rather than the umbrella they share.

Largest and most organized would probably be the army.

Yeah that's true, but the army is run and led by adults, and serious and disciplined adults* at that.  The mice probably get up to quite a bit of nonsense when the cats are away, but no where near what happens on a college campus.  Fraternities are a group of boys being led and managed by other boys, with maybe some direct alumni guidance and a national organization that could be 2000 miles away.

[Valmy]

Risk management and liability were a big deal even back then, I can't imagine how hard they hammer that stuff into kids' heads these days.  It probably just gets ignored because large groups of young men do whatever the hell they want. #yolo

It is rather dumbfounding.

[Syt]

Why is Syt so happy?
Did he find a dick sneaking into his anus or somethin?

Siege, I'm flattered by your insinuation, but I'm not interested.

[Richard Hakluyt]

I don't think fraternities are any more evil than any other large collection of 18-22 year old boys.  They may be the largest and most organized group of 18-22 year old boys you will find anywhere, but I think the problem is more about the collection of dummies rather than the umbrella they share.

Largest and most organized would probably be the army.

Yeah that's true, but the army is run and led by adults, and serious and disciplined adults* at that.  The mice probably get up to quite a bit of nonsense when the cats are away, but no where near what happens on a college campus.  Fraternities are a group of boys being led and managed by other boys, with maybe some direct alumni guidance and a national organization that could be 2000 miles away.

Yes, I'm in agreement with your main point. I'm implying also that if fraternities cannot effectively self-regulate then the authorities need to step in, on a case by case basis perhaps.

[sbr]

I don't think fraternities are any more evil than any other large collection of 18-22 year old boys.  They may be the largest and most organized group of 18-22 year old boys you will find anywhere, but I think the problem is more about the collection of dummies rather than the umbrella they share.

And therefore I am not surprised an Oklahoma Frat had such vile things to say on the subject of race.  The frats in question serve no other purpose than social bonding and cultivating certain values.  If those values are vile well then...is it the frat or the members that are responsible?  Does it matter?

Not to be too pedantic, but I guarantee there is no national fraternity that has racism, especially public displays of racism among their values.

It may be something that shows up in the local culture of a chapter, like it did here, and if so they should do the same thing and nuke the chapter but blaming the national organization and/or other chapter of that fraternity or  other completely separate fraternities doesn't make sense.

You can't convince me that one group of 80 18-22 year old boys away from home and looking to party and sow their wild oats is going to be worse than another similar group of boys just because the first joined a fraternity.  Maybe fraternities are a bad idea, but it would be because large groups of drunk 18-22 year old boys is a bad thing, whether the writing on their t-shirts is in Greek or any other language.

[Valmy]

Not to be too pedantic, but I guarantee there is no national fraternity that has racism, especially public displays of racism among their values.

Of course not.  I am not talking about the national organization I am talking about the version that exists on that campus and the values they are actually cultivating.

You can't convince me that one group of 80 18-22 year old boys away from home and looking to party and sow their wild oats is going to be worse than another similar group of boys just because the first joined a fraternity

Sure.  But how productive is it to have organizations that exist where the perception is their purpose is to facilitate that?  Not a big fan of single gender organizations anyway.

[grumbler]

You can't convince me that one group of 80 18-22 year old boys away from home and looking to party and sow their wild oats is going to be worse than another similar group of boys just because the first joined a fraternity.  Maybe fraternities are a bad idea, but it would be because large groups of drunk 18-22 year old boys is a bad thing, whether the writing on their t-shirts is in Greek or any other language.

I think you are wasting your breathe.  I think the anti-greek crowd is far more comfortable with ignorance than enlightenment.

[Valmy]

I think you are wasting your breathe.  I think the anti-greek crowd is far more comfortable with ignorance than enlightenment.

Actually I was finding his arguments convincing and thought we were having a nice discussion.  But thanks for you input.  Can you not be a jerk for once?  Maybe?

[sbr]

Sure.  But how productive is it to have organizations that exist where the perception is their purpose is to facilitate that?  Not a big fan of single gender organizations anyway.

I don't think we should be banning or penalizing things because others' perception of them is wrong.  It doesn't make for very interesting articles, and thus they don't get many clicks, so you don't hear about the enormous number of hours of volunteer work that Greek students do, or all of the charitable fundraising they do, or that the Greek GPA is almost always higher than the non-Greek GPA (based on 8 seconds of 'research').

I'm also not convinced that Greek students are any worse than the normal student, just like any other well known group they are easier to identify and label. 

If a normal average student cheats on a test he is an idiot and if anyone else finds out they just assume he is an idiot.  If a college football player cheats on a test the entire program is corrupt and all football players are uneducated thugs who don't even belong on college campuses.

If an unattached group of friends get into a a drunken bar fight they are just some idiots.  If they are wearing Greek letters on their shirts every other person who does or has ever worn those letters is a terrible human being.

As I acknowledged there are problems, and there are bad apples everywhere but fraternities and sororities have a huge net benefit to their campuses and the surrounding communities.  That is just harder to see and less interesting than the stupid shit that a small number of their members do.

[The Brain]

Young German men gathering in groups might do something silly sometimes, but don't blame the runes.

[Jacob]

If an unattached group of friends get into a a drunken bar fight they are just some idiots.  If they are wearing Greek letters on their shirts every other person who does or has ever worn those letters is a terrible human being.

That's the same for any visible affiliation. If you are part of a group that stands apart from regular society - whether you belong to an ethnic or religious minority, to a youth subculture of some sort, clearly display some sort of political allegiance - then yeah you are not only going to be judged more harshly than "undifferentiated people", your actions are going to reflect on the group you are part on.

That's generally how it works.

[Valmy]

I don't think we should be banning or penalizing things because others' perception of them is wrong.

No we should only ban or penalize things when they do something that makes them worth banning or penalizing.  Just because I am not a fan of a concept does not mean I want them banned.

It doesn't make for very interesting articles, and thus they don't get many clicks, so you don't hear about the enormous number of hours of volunteer work that Greek students do, or all of the charitable fundraising they do, or that the Greek GPA is almost always higher than the non-Greek GPA (based on 8 seconds of 'research').

I am well aware of those things.  I lived on a Greek dominated campus for five years.  I don't read clickbait articles.  I also saw all the other things they did.  The massive parties that typically led to chaos and destruction were always their annual events.  Now that does not make them responsible for what everybody does during those events but they very much gloried in their reputation.  A bit too much: see massive booze bust.  But it was a bit creepy that all non-Greeks were not invited except for...the freshmen.  I mean you are kind of waving the flag of 'we are committing criminal activity here'.  I am talking about specific fraternities who did specific things. 

I'm also not convinced that Greek students are any worse than the normal student, just like any other well known group they are easier to identify and label.

They are organizations that sponsor events and have to take responsibility for the culture they create since that is what their entire purpose is supposed to be: to create a good culture on campus.

If a normal average student cheats on a test he is an idiot and if anyone else finds out they just assume he is an idiot.  If a college football player cheats on a test the entire program is corrupt and all football players are uneducated thugs who don't even belong on college campuses.

I never said all fraternities were bad.  But they have the capability of being so due to the power of groupthink and all that, it is the same sort of thing that would make them very positive in the right circumstances.

If an unattached group of friends get into a a drunken bar fight they are just some idiots.  If they are wearing Greek letters on their shirts every other person who does or has ever worn those letters is a terrible human being.

Except we are not talking about isolated people doing things off campus.  We are talking about things occurring by many members at events sponsored by the frat.  The frat should be ultimately responsible, especially when we are talking about people they selected as being 'good fits' for what culture they are propagating.  And, in general, they are.

As I acknowledged there are problems, and there are bad apples everywhere but fraternities and sororities have a huge net benefit to their campuses and the surrounding communities.  That is just harder to see and less interesting than the stupid shit that a small number of their members do.

Having been on a campus completely Greek dominated and one that was not I vastly prefer the latter.  Still tons of honors and service coed service fraternities to do charity work and have a positive impact.  But that is just a preference.  If a fraternity is creating a toxic culture the organization needs to be punished, hopefully the others will be careful to monitor what they are seen to sponsor in the future.