The Cops Can Pretty Much Always Search Your Smartphone in Canada

[Jacob]

I find people conflating police officers and border agents puzzling.

I find it puzzling that people quibble over the slight misuse of the word "cop."  In what way does such a minor misuse change any arguments in the discussion?

I find it amusing that you of all people are puzzled by quibbling over a word being misused slightly

In my understanding, the exigencies of border control and policing are different so carrying expectations from one area to the other muddies the water.

That said, as per Zanza apparently there are places where there is no distinction between the two which is interesting.

[crazy canuck]

Interesting. What countries do not distinguish between the two?

The ones I'm familiar with all do, as far as I know.

Germany

The Border guards in Germany have an interesting history.  But it is also interesting to note that they are also something different from the police officers and so the distinction between the powers given to a Border Guard is different than a police officer even in Germany.  In North American the difference is even more significant, making Grumbler's point even more mystifying.

[Barrister]

I find people conflating police officers and border agents puzzling.

I don't.  It's a common mistake for laypeople to make.

But it is a mistake to conflate the two, so I try to always point it out.

[Martinus]

I have followed this board long enough to know to never side with Canadians.

[crazy canuck]

I find people conflating police officers and border agents puzzling.

I don't.  It's a common mistake for laypeople to make.

But it is a mistake to conflate the two, so I try to always point it out.

And not a mistake of semantics.  We have had people in this thread argue that border guards should be restricted to the same rules of search and seizure as normal police officers.  I suppose if one wants to have an unsecure border that would be ok.

[crazy canuck]

I have followed this board long enough to know to never side with Canadians.

Only do so if you want to be on the side of truth and justice

[Jacob]

I have followed this board long enough to know to never side with Canadians.

Your "never" rarely lasts longer than twenty four hours.

[Barrister]

If you're a citizen of the country that you're entering, there is no good reason you shouldn't.

It depends on whether the government of the country is willing to grant that expectation to its citizens.  Remember that most countries are like Canada, where rights are given by the government, not like the US, where rights are human and the government only has the power to infringe on them that the people give it.  Those are two completely different starting points.

You know, I wanted to reply to this at first, but I was on my phone and couldn't type out the response I wanted to.

It's simply not right to say that in Canada "rights are given by the government".  Canada, of course, if heir to the British common law which long recognized all the basic human rights.  The right to be free from unreasonable searches, the right to a fair trial, the right to due process - all existed in the common law.

Now what we did in Canada in 1982 is to codify those rights - instead of relying on vague and uncertain caselaw, we wrote them down.  But those rights didn't spring into existince in 1982 - they had always existed in the law.

[Barrister]

I have followed this board long enough to know to never side with Canadians.

You wouldn't want to ruin your record of being consistently wrong on every issue, I understand.

[dps]

An opposite story, going into the UK.

Do you understand that the chances of an American tourist trying to smuggle something into the UK is very small compared to a US citizen attempting to smuggle something in the US?

Yet he failed the initial screen and had to go through a secondary screen.  But they were polite about it.

The fact, though, is that in almost any job, you're going to have some people who are rude and unpleasant.  Unless the job is one that directly involves customer service, the person's supervisors aren't really going to care.

[Barrister]

You have no expectation of privacy at the border.

You always have an expectation of privacy. Especially from government agents. They should always need a plausible reason why they want to search you and you should always have a way to seek judicial oversight in case you disagree.

The plausible reason is that you are bringing goods into the country.  It's long been established the state can search goods being brought into the country in order to ensure that all applicable duties and taxes have been paid for.  This is not a new development at law at all.

You do have the ability for judicial oversight.  If something is found and you're subsequently charged, you have the right to challenge that search in court.

[Jacob]

The plausible reason is that you are bringing goods into the country.  It's long been established the state can search goods being brought into the country in order to ensure that all applicable duties and taxes have been paid for.  This is not a new development at law at all.

You do have the ability for judicial oversight.  If something is found and you're subsequently charged, you have the right to challenge that search in court.

It's hard to argue that the contents of your cell-phone is "goods", IMO.

[Barrister]

The plausible reason is that you are bringing goods into the country.  It's long been established the state can search goods being brought into the country in order to ensure that all applicable duties and taxes have been paid for.  This is not a new development at law at all.

You do have the ability for judicial oversight.  If something is found and you're subsequently charged, you have the right to challenge that search in court.

It's hard to argue that the contents of your cell-phone is "goods", IMO.

The cell phone itself is a good.

And at law if you had a padlock on your goods you'd be obliged to open it for the border guards, so it's the same for your cellphone.

[Zanza]

But it is also interesting to note that they are also something different from the police officers and so the distinction between the powers given to a Border Guard is different than a police officer even in Germany.

I am not exactly an expert on the police-related legislation of Germany's sixteen states and that of the federal government, but at least from my perspective there is no difference. The law establishing the federal police makes it explicit that it is a police task to guard borders and that the federal police has police powers. They also wear the same uniforms that say police.



By the way, your luggage at the airport would be checked by a different agency in Germany, namely the Federal Customs Agency. They have only limited police powers and are not considered a police force. There are actually two different kind of borders: for persons and goods. You'll notice when you arrive at just about any international airport. You'll always be checked for your travel documents (persons border), but your luggage is typically only checked in your final destination (goods border). The US is rather the exception here again as they make you pick up your luggage, haul it past a disinterested customs officer and re-check it afterwards.

[Razgovory]

Here in Warsaw cops are much nicer. They bring you mail and put out fires.

Well the police in communist countries had lots of experience going through the mail and knowing where everyone lived so that makes sense.