11 dead in French satirical magazine shooting

[garbon]

I would feel the same if a Muslim cop was sent to protect participants in a gay pride march - I would not see the fact that he is doing his job by protecting people he considers an abomination to somehow make him more praiseworthy.

I think it's related to the point I made above about free speech--it's easy to defend the right when you agree with the speaker.  I'm not sure that I'd say it's more praiseworthy, but it does show some degree of devotion to doing your duty, rather than just going through the motions to collect a paycheck.

Ok, but you can also see where I am coming from, I hope? I feel uncomfortable if there is a merest suggestion that a cop's protection is somehow conditional - especially as, minorities are and have been frequently treated differently by cops, which I find unacceptable.

But that's the point--the slain officer didn't make doing his job conditional.  He did his job regardless of his feelings about the content of Charlie's cartoons.

Unfortunately, as you point out, you can't say that about all cops.

I am not hating on the cop - I am hating on the tweet (which clearly wasn't made by the cop). And only because Jacob, garbon & co. thought it appropriate to tout it around as a cause celebre for their side. So I am just saying the implication hidden in the tweet is troubling.

Way less troubling than what your "side" would do about Muslims.

[Razgovory]

Basement troll a.k.a known Defender of the Faiths, islamist apologist extraordinaire, should document himself better (as in not talking about out of his ass) about Courrier International for once which is known for printing articles and cartoons from all over the world. They're not the only ones, remember when Charlie Hebdo reprinted the Mohamed cartoons from Jylland Post?

http://www.courrierinternational.com/galerie/2014/12/28/cartoons-l-annee-2014-vue-en-40-dessins-de-presse

2014 seen through 40 press cartoons: Mexico, South Sudan, Thailand/Lebanon, Albania for instance

Another link just for you

http://www.courrierinternational.com/article/2015/01/10/menaces-sur-les-cartoonistes-turcs

"Threats on Turkish cartoonists"
Say thanks to your beloved Erdogan

En Turquie comme dans de très nombreux pays, l'attentat contre Charlie Hebdo a suscité une vague de solidarité. Notamment parmi les confrères des dessinateurs assassinés, relève le site d'information sur le Moyen-Orient Al-Monitor.

Le 7 janvier, un journaliste du magazine satirique Leman tweetait une photo de Wolinski, en pleine séance de croquis lors d'une visite à Istanbul, et demandait : "Cet homme est-il l'ennemi de l'islam ?".

Parmi les nombreuses vignettes venues de Turquie, Al-Monitor relève celle du cartooniste Musa Kart, publiée par CumHuriyet, dans laquelle il croque le président turc Erdogan, disant : "Je condamne cette attaque. Une peine de 10 ans pour ces dessinateurs aurait suffi."

Une attitude courageuse, explique Pinar Tremblay, la chroniqueuse d'Al-Monitor, car Musa Kart a déjà été poursuivi de nombreuse fois par le président. "En Turquie, les dessinateurs ne sont pas protégés, confie un autre caricaturiste. Si la liberté d'expression n'est pas garantie, certains pourraient s'inspirer de l'attaque inhumaine contre Charlie Hebdo et tenter de les reproduire".

Ils n'ont pas écouté les avertissements

Or, Pinar Tremblay s'inquiète des réactions qu'elle voit émerger dans la société turque, mais aussi dans la presse. Comme celle du journal de droite Yeni Akit. "Je n'envisagerais jamais de participer à une telle attaque, ni d'inciter quelqu'un à la violence. Mais quand on me demande si je la condamne, je réponds : attendez un instant. Parce qu'ils ont ridiculisé l'islam avec leurs dessins. Ils ont méprisé et dénigré le prophète. Leur ligne éditoriale était carrément fondée sur la moquerie. Ils n'ont pas écouté les avertissements de ceux qui les appelaient à changer de trajectoire. Alors, le jour où il leur arrive quelque chose, pourquoi s'attendre à des condamnations de notre part ?"

L'inquiétude vient aussi du web, poursuit Pinar Tremblay, où des groupes de supporters du président Erdogan, qui se font appeler "AK-trolls", c'est-à-dire les trolls [du parti] AKP" diffusent des messages déroutants. "Le pire dans ce groupe a été un tweet du compte @GizliArsiv, qui menaçait Leman : 'Que cette attaque vous serve de leçon'. A noter, relève la chroniqueuse, que les griefs de cet internaute ne concernaient pas les offenses du magazine à l'égard de l'islam ou du prophète, mais Erdogan." Enfin, si la plupart de ces "AK-trolls" sont anonymes, ce n'est pas le cas d'un chroniqueur du journal Vahdet Daily, Ibrahim Yoruk, qui a tweeté, à l'adresse d'un autre magazine satirique, Penguen : "Apprenez de leurs erreurs : il ne peut pas y avoir d'humour concernant la foi islamique."

Certes, "en Turquie, les dessinateurs ont l'habitude de la violence, y compris des incendies criminels et des tirs contre leurs bureaux, conclut Pinar Tremblay. Mais, alors que nous vivons un deuil majeur, il est effrayant de constater un tel degré de colère, aussi flagrante et insatiable."

Exec summary

- Wolinski, one the murdered cartoonists used Turkey as in inspiration


"Is this man the enemy of Islam?"
-  Select Cartoon: Erdogan stating: "I condemn the Paris attack over the cartoons, 10 years in jail for those cartoonists would have been enough".
- "They had it coming" people over there as well
- Turkey also has pro-Erdogan trolls (sorry it's no longer a Languish exclusive)

I don't think you understand that we don't fucking care about French cartoons.  Not because we oppose what some French magazine says, but because it just doesn't fucking register.  The only time I saw any French political cartoons discussed in the US was the run up to the Iraq war and mostly it was a bemused confusion.  I remember a news show showing the covers of European papers and they had political cartoons under the main headline, and the commentator saying "I guess the French really like cartoons".  I'm willing to bet the majority of people in the US don't know who the President of France is while the majority of French do know who the President of the US is.  This isn't because of poor education, but because France is not a big deal.  Our News papers don't carry stories about France every week.  French papers do carry something about the US every week or so.  Interest goes up, not down.  France is for the most part beneath our notice, just as Botswana is beneath yours.   Nobody here knew about the this magazine before this.  I didn't.  I doubt you'd find 1% of Americans who did, so we didn't notice that this magazine carried a cartoon from a danish paper or that another newspaper carried a cartoon from South Sudan. 

[mongers]

I don't think you understand that we don't fucking care about French cartoons.  Not because we oppose what some French magazine says, but because it just doesn't fucking register.  The only time I saw any French political cartoons discussed in the US was the run up to the Iraq war and mostly it was a bemused confusion.  I remember a news show showing the covers of European papers and they had political cartoons under the main headline, and the commentator saying "I guess the French really like cartoons".  I'm willing to bet the majority of people in the US don't know who the President of France is while the majority of French do know who the President of the US is.  This isn't because of poor education, but because France is not a big deal.  Our News papers don't carry stories about France every week.  French papers do carry something about the US every week or so.  Interest goes up, not down.  France is for the most part beneath our notice, just as Botswana is beneath yours.   Nobody here knew about the this magazine before this.  I didn't.  I doubt you'd find 1% of Americans who did, so we didn't notice that this magazine carried a cartoon from a danish paper or that another newspaper carried a cartoon from South Sudan.

So Raz, if you're so disinterested in France (a polite assumption on my par), why are you especially posting so extensively in this thread?

[Razgovory]

You misunderstand, I didn't say I was disinterested, I said Americans were as a whole.  That's why you don't see French cartoons published in American papers very often (the other obvious one, is that we don't speak French).  This line of argument arose because of the suggestion that the reason this cartoon is not normally published in the US is because of inadequate freedom of speech.  The more obvious reason is that nobody here knows that the magazine here exists or cares or speaks French.  Same reason the Mlawi news doesn't register in France that much.

[dps]

Or

You misunderstand, I didn't say I was disinterested, I said Americans were as a whole.  That's why you don't see French cartoons published in American papers very often (the other obvious one, is that we don't speak French).  This line of argument arose because of the suggestion that the reason this cartoon is not normally published in the US is because of inadequate freedom of speech.  The more obvious reason is that nobody here knows that the magazine here exists or cares or speaks French.  Same reason the Mlawi news doesn't register in France that much.

Beyond that, I think we are also looking at another instance of many Euros not quite grasping the sheer size of the US, and the size of our media.  For example, the Charleston (WV) Gazette is a daily newspaper with a circulation greater than that of the weekly Charlie Hebdo.  The national media doesn't normally reprint editorial cartoons from the Gazette, either.  Circulation figures that small simply don't register on a national level here.

[Eddie Teach]

Eh, I think if cartoons in the Charleston Gazette resulted in 12 people getting killed, that would be pretty newsworthy. US papers aren't reprinting the cartoons because they don't want to poke the bear. Which is completely understandable.

That isn't to say America doesn't have a stronger commitment to free speech than most European countries. There is a distinct difference between government actions limiting free speech and terrorist actions limiting free speech.

[Razgovory]

Eh, I think if cartoons in the Charleston Gazette resulted in 12 people getting killed, that would be pretty newsworthy. US papers aren't reprinting the cartoons because they don't want to poke the bear. Which is completely understandable.

That isn't to say America doesn't have a stronger commitment to free speech than most European countries. There is a distinct difference between government actions limiting free speech and terrorist actions limiting free speech.

We don't reprint French political cartoons  that don't deal with Muslims.  There is no restriction on it, it's just nobody cares.  Likewise a political cartoon in the St. Louis post about Highway funding probably won't get much play in France.  People are critical of Muslims all the time in the US.  I imagine if you look at some of white supremacist publications you can find all sorts of cartoons about Jews, Blacks, Muslims etc.  They aren't reprinted in the New York Times not out of fear of violence, but because they are viewed as poor taste.  Anti-Muslim sentiment is stronger (or at least more open), but still viewed as unseemly.

[dps]

Eh, I think if cartoons in the Charleston Gazette resulted in 12 people getting killed, that would be pretty newsworthy. US papers aren't reprinting the cartoons because they don't want to poke the bear. Which is completely understandable.

Oh, OK.  I thought that the complaint was about our media not reprinting French political cartoons before the attacks, not about not reprinting the cartoons that ticked the attackers off.

[Valmy]

I'm willing to bet the majority of people in the US don't know who the President of France is while the majority of French do know who the President of the US is.  This isn't because of poor education, but because France is not a big deal.

Mexico is a huge deal for the Texas economy.  Its culture and politics have a huge influence on us.  Yet we know jack fuck all about it.  Hardly anybody knows or cares who the President is and what Mexicans think about things.  China is a huge deal for the US.  How many Americans know who the leaders of China are and what sort of cultural issues go on over there?  Hardly anybody.  So I find your contention that people do not know about countries because they are unimportant pretty strange.  We just do not know about other countries, whatever their importance might be.

[Razgovory]

I'm willing to bet the majority of people in the US don't know who the President of France is while the majority of French do know who the President of the US is.  This isn't because of poor education, but because France is not a big deal.

Mexico is a huge deal for the Texas economy.  Its culture and politics have a huge influence on us.  Yet we know jack fuck all about it.  Hardly anybody knows or cares who the President is and what Mexicans think about things.  China is a huge deal for the US.  How many Americans know who the leaders of China are and what sort of cultural issues go on over there?  Hardly anybody.  So I find your contention that people do not know about countries because they are unimportant pretty strange.  We just do not know about other countries, whatever their importance might be.

I'd say that the US is a bigger deal for France then China is for the US.  The US is top dog, it is the hegemon. Everyone has to look up to see it.  To see everyone else the US has to look down.  You notice things above you more then you notice things below you.  The US tends to concentrate on those countries that make trouble.  Russia, Iran, North Korea etc.

[jimmy olsen]

I'm willing to bet the majority of people in the US don't know who the President of France is while the majority of French do know who the President of the US is.  This isn't because of poor education, but because France is not a big deal.

Mexico is a huge deal for the Texas economy.  Its culture and politics have a huge influence on us.  Yet we know jack fuck all about it.  Hardly anybody knows or cares who the President is and what Mexicans think about things.  China is a huge deal for the US.  How many Americans know who the leaders of China are and what sort of cultural issues go on over there?  Hardly anybody.  So I find your contention that people do not know about countries because they are unimportant pretty strange.  We just do not know about other countries, whatever their importance might be.

How could you not know such a debonair Head of State!

[Eddie Teach]

How could you not know such a debonair Head of State!

Only other Mexicans know who that is.

[Admiral Yi]

I know who that is.

[Eddie Teach]

I guess you must be Mexican then. Like Tim. 

[Tonitrus]

How could you not know such a debonair Head of State!

Only other Mexicans know who that is.

The POTUS should wear a star-spangled sweater vest.