So, is this rape?

[Martinus]

She was certainly sexually assaulted.  Whether the midget raped her depends on his mindset, not hers.  If he thought she was willingly engaging in sex with him, he wasn't raping her.  If he engaged in sex with her knowing that she hadn't consented to sex with him, then he did rape her.  I don't think that there can be a rape victim without a rape perpetrator, though I may be legally wrong on that.

Sorry, I guess I wasn't clear on that point. The way he told the story, he was in on the "joke". Of course I agree with you - if he, himself, had been the butt of the "prank", then clearly he would have lacked the mens rea.

Edit: although I wonder if that was actually the case, the party who orchestrated the "prank" wouldnt have been guilty. But I guess it depends on the exact language of the relevant rape statute. The Polish law I mentioned before could find Mencia guilty - as it does not require that it is the perp with whom the victim has sex.

[garbon]

She was certainly sexually assaulted.  Whether the midget raped her depends on his mindset, not hers.  If he thought she was willingly engaging in sex with him, he wasn't raping her.  If he engaged in sex with her knowing that she hadn't consented to sex with him, then he did rape her.  I don't think that there can be a rape victim without a rape perpetrator, though I may be legally wrong on that.

Rape isn't contingent on the doer thinking he was a doer.

[grumbler]

She was certainly sexually assaulted.  Whether the midget raped her depends on his mindset, not hers.  If he thought she was willingly engaging in sex with him, he wasn't raping her.  If he engaged in sex with her knowing that she hadn't consented to sex with him, then he did rape her.  I don't think that there can be a rape victim without a rape perpetrator, though I may be legally wrong on that.

Sorry, I guess I wasn't clear on that point. The way he told the story, he was in on the "joke". Of course I agree with you - if he, himself, had been the butt of the "prank", then clearly he would have lacked the mens rea.

That point clarified, I agree with you.  Will wonders never cease?

[Martinus]

She was certainly sexually assaulted.  Whether the midget raped her depends on his mindset, not hers.  If he thought she was willingly engaging in sex with him, he wasn't raping her.  If he engaged in sex with her knowing that she hadn't consented to sex with him, then he did rape her.  I don't think that there can be a rape victim without a rape perpetrator, though I may be legally wrong on that.

Rape isn't contingent on the doer thinking he was a doer.

The doer's liability clearly is, though. What the perp is thinking is at the core of the concept of mens rea, which is required for most crimes.

[MadBurgerMaker]

Seems rapey.

[grumbler]

Rape isn't contingent on the doer thinking he was a doer.

I have no idea what "doer" means under the law, so I am not sure what idea this comment is supposed to be conveying.

[Martinus]

And before CC calls me a shitty lawyer again, I am of course simplifying it - you could, for example, establish the existence of mens rea even if the perp does not think what he is doing fulfills criteria of a crime - as long as that belief is unreasonable.

Also, this is not the same as not knowing something is illegal - we are talking here about a mistaken understanding of facts, not law.

[Sheilbh]

She was certainly sexually assaulted.  Whether the midget raped her depends on his mindset, not hers.  If he thought she was willingly engaging in sex with him, he wasn't raping her.  If he engaged in sex with her knowing that she hadn't consented to sex with him, then he did rape her.  I don't think that there can be a rape victim without a rape perpetrator, though I may be legally wrong on that.

Rape isn't contingent on the doer thinking he was a doer.

It does depend. In England at least rape is contingent on the doer not reasonably believing that the victim consents.

If they reasonably believe that the sex is consensual then they've not committed rape.

[garbon]

She was certainly sexually assaulted.  Whether the midget raped her depends on his mindset, not hers.  If he thought she was willingly engaging in sex with him, he wasn't raping her.  If he engaged in sex with her knowing that she hadn't consented to sex with him, then he did rape her.  I don't think that there can be a rape victim without a rape perpetrator, though I may be legally wrong on that.

Rape isn't contingent on the doer thinking he was a doer.

It does depend. In England at least rape is contingent on the doer not reasonably believing that the victim consents.

If they reasonably believe that the sex is consensual then they've not committed rape.

Interesting. Obviously this isn't from a legal side, but from many of the incidents here, there seems to often be the accused rapist claiming they thought it was consensual.

[Syt]

If I'm led to believe that I'll have sex with Scarlett Johansson and I realize half way through that I'm actually in bed with Nancy Pelosi, you bet I'll call it rape.

[Martinus]

If I'm led to believe that I'll have sex with Scarlett Johansson and I realize half way through that I'm actually in bed with Nancy Pelosi, you bet I'll call it rape.

What if, instead of Scarlett Johanson, it turns out to be Woody Allen?

[Caliga]

If I'm led to believe that I'll have sex with Scarlett Johansson and I realize half way through that I'm actually in bed with Nancy Pelosi, you bet I'll call it rape.

Nancy seems like she'd be fun.  I'd roll with it, personally.

[Norgy]

Yeah; which is probably in part why almost all the states have either repealed their rape laws in favor of sexual assault laws, or amended their rape laws to cover sexual assault.

I guess it is a fair point, but I would say likewise that in casual modern language "rape" is often used to describe any sexual assault which actually involves vaginal, anal or oral penetration.

In Norway, rape is generally under-reported. Mostly because people get drunk, end up getting shagged without really consenting and wonder WTF the morning after. Typically, young women don't report this, even if it is rape by the definition of the law.

Lack of explicit consent equals rape. End of.

[garbon]

Lack of explicit consent equals rape. End of.

I don't think I would agree with this. It seems like the only truly explicit consent would be saying "Yes, let's have sex now" which is not something that at least I, have seen happen a lot ().

[Norgy]

Explicit consent could be non-verbal.