CIA Report

[Martinus]

I have to say - the notion of American exceptionalism is one that I find pretty baffling. I've seen Jon Stewart (a leftie) interview Andrew Napolitano on the Daily Show lately and they both, without any reservation, any "ahem" or any wink to the audience, discussed personal liberties while acknowledging the axiom that America is the "most free country in the world". That was startling. This may be true for America in some areas, quite obviously untrue in others - but I don't think any European would make a blanket statement of such nature about their own country even if it was, mostly, true.

It is a vital concept in the functioning of our country.  If we ever stopped believing this then I am not sure what would be the point of our country.  It would be like Poland deciding to stop being Polish.

I guess - it is probably like Polish people believing we are "the Christ of Nations" and the nation "most victimised by others" in the history of humanity. Never mind it is dysfunctional bullshit.

[Martinus]

One thing that The Economist noted is that while the torture was bad and stuff, America is legit one of the few countries that so regularly and so thoroughly airs its dirty laundry in public. There are a lot of liberal democracies that white wash their ethical failings.

So it's ok as long as we tell people about it?  Exposing it doesn't make it better unless it prevents it from happening again.  Cheney's position is quite the opposite of contrite.

That is my point I made earlier - and one where I dare say I made a good analogy - i.e. being like a cheating husband who confesses to having a mistress and then expects accolades for being so honest about it.

[OttoVonBismarck]

So it's ok as long as we tell people about it?

Did I say that mofo?

Exposing it doesn't make it better unless it prevents it from happening again.

Which is kinda what happened already, in 2007. By 2008 Bush had largely stopped the activity and Obama ended the entire program fairly early in his Presidency. So when John Kiriakouc revealed this stuff in 2007 (and thus leaking classified information), something he did 30 months in prison for, I would say he was making it better. We've not wavered at any point in the Obama Administration about whether we were going back to these techniques.

Cheney's position is quite the opposite of contrite.

Cheney is a private citizen, his position doesn't actually matter.

[frunk]

So it's ok as long as we tell people about it?

Did I say that mofo?

You quoted the Economist as if it meant something.  Exposing dirty laundry is useful if it brings about change, otherwise it's just bragging.

[Malthus]

I have to say - the notion of American exceptionalism is one that I find pretty baffling. I've seen Jon Stewart (a leftie) interview Andrew Napolitano on the Daily Show lately and they both, without any reservation, any "ahem" or any wink to the audience, discussed personal liberties while acknowledging the axiom that America is the "most free country in the world". That was startling. This may be true for America in some areas, quite obviously untrue in others - but I don't think any European would make a blanket statement of such nature about their own country even if it was, mostly, true.

It is a vital concept in the functioning of our country.  If we ever stopped believing this then I am not sure what would be the point of our country.  It would be like Poland deciding to stop being Polish.

Exceptionalism is helpful where it inspires people to live up to it as an ideal.

Exceptionalism is harmful where it inspires complacency because the country is already the "most free".

[Valmy]

I guess - it is probably like Polish people believing we are "the Christ of Nations" and the nation "most victimised by others" in the history of humanity. Never mind it is dysfunctional bullshit.

Except it is not dysfunctional.  It is why this report exists and people like Berkut and I, amongst others, are demanding we be better.  It is why this country is still worth something.

Well ok it is a little dysfunctional.

[Valmy]

Exceptionalism is helpful where it inspires people to live up to it as an ideal.

Exceptionalism is harmful where it inspires complacency because the country is already the "most free".

Well ok that is true.  I guess it is hard to find a cultural value without a bit of a double edge to it.

[Valmy]

Cheney is a private citizen, his position doesn't actually matter.

He is an important former political leader and I presume still a person of influence in the Republican Party.  His positions influence others.

[Valmy]

It's cute when a guy doesn't go through his bright eyed emo college kid phase until middle age. Daily Kos style.

Progress depends on the unreasonable man does it not Otto?

[Jacob]

Cheney is a private citizen, his position doesn't actually matter.

He is an important former political leader and I presume still a person of influence in the Republican Party.  His positions influence others.

Well... that, and it could be argued that he's a war criminal, being responsible for instituting torture as an official American policy. As such, his reaction is both interesting and relevant and his attempts at equivocating are illuminating.

[Valmy]

Well... that, and it could be argued that he's a war criminal, being responsible for instituting torture as an official American policy. As such, his reaction is both interesting and relevant and his attempts at equivocating are illuminating.

And doing anything about it would be "partisan".  Meh.  I hate our two political parties so much.

[OttoVonBismarck]

Well... that, and it could be argued that he's a war criminal, being responsible for instituting torture as an official American policy. As such, his reaction is both interesting and relevant and his attempts at equivocating are illuminating.

Interestingly some have opined that the reason Cheney was quick to link Bush to direct knowledge/approval of it was because it insulates Cheney. The Vice President essentially has two constitutional functions (1. having a heart beat when the sitting President stops having one, and 2. breaking ties in the Senate), as long as Bush is portrayed as having full knowledge of the program there is really no scenario where anyone could go after Cheney without going after Bush and the theory is they are less willing to go after a former President.

[OttoVonBismarck]

You quoted the Economist as if it meant something.  Exposing dirty laundry is useful if it brings about change, otherwise it's just bragging.

Okay, and to repeat: we stopped this in 2009. Change has already happened. Of course we had already discussed this issue publicly in 2008, which is why I believe the Senate report was ill advised political theater.

[Jacob]

Interestingly some have opined that the reason Cheney was quick to link Bush to direct knowledge/approval of it was because it insulates Cheney. The Vice President essentially has two constitutional functions (1. having a heart beat when the sitting President stops having one, and 2. breaking ties in the Senate), as long as Bush is portrayed as having full knowledge of the program there is really no scenario where anyone could go after Cheney without going after Bush and the theory is they are less willing to go after a former President.

Yeah, that makes sense.

The popular narrative that Cheney was basically Bush's handler is neither here nor there legally, I expect.

[The Brain]

You quoted the Economist as if it meant something.  Exposing dirty laundry is useful if it brings about change, otherwise it's just bragging.

Okay, and to repeat: we stopped this in 2009.