Rethinking Sherman's March: A Kindler, Gentler Total War?

Started by CountDeMoney, November 19, 2014, 10:23:34 AM

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Razgovory

Quote from: Admiral Yi on November 21, 2014, 01:39:38 AM
How hostile are they now?

Exactly as hostile as they would be if they lost their land.  They are all dead now.  Dead people are very agreeable.   I am a bit curious as to where you are going with that question.  If they lost their land, they could be as hostile as they wanted.  Wouldn't do them any more good then the hostility of the Russian nobility had toward the Reds in the 1930's.
I've given it serious thought. I must scorn the ways of my family, and seek a Japanese woman to yield me my progeny. He shall live in the lands of the east, and be well tutored in his sacred trust to weave the best traditions of Japan and the Sacred South together, until such time as he (or, indeed his house, which will periodically require infusion of both Southern and Japanese bloodlines of note) can deliver to the South it's independence, either in this world or in space.  -Lettow April of 2011

Raz is right. -MadImmortalMan March of 2017


jimmy olsen

Quote from: Admiral Yi on November 21, 2014, 12:44:14 AM
It's a terrible idea.  It would have guaranteed the permanent hostility of the governing class of the South.
There would be a new governing class if that was done.
It is far better for the truth to tear my flesh to pieces, then for my soul to wander through darkness in eternal damnation.

Jet: So what kind of woman is she? What's Julia like?
Faye: Ordinary. The kind of beautiful, dangerous ordinary that you just can't leave alone.
Jet: I see.
Faye: Like an angel from the underworld. Or a devil from Paradise.
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jimmy olsen

It is far better for the truth to tear my flesh to pieces, then for my soul to wander through darkness in eternal damnation.

Jet: So what kind of woman is she? What's Julia like?
Faye: Ordinary. The kind of beautiful, dangerous ordinary that you just can't leave alone.
Jet: I see.
Faye: Like an angel from the underworld. Or a devil from Paradise.
--------------------------------------------
1 Karma Chameleon point

Eddie Teach

Quote from: jimmy olsen on November 21, 2014, 02:31:55 AM
There would be a new governing class if that was done.

Sure, carpetbaggers. Who would be even more distrusted by the commons than they were historically.
To sleep, perchance to dream. But in that sleep of death, what dreams may come?

Razgovory

Quote from: jimmy olsen on November 21, 2014, 02:32:55 AM
Quote from: Admiral Yi on November 21, 2014, 02:00:16 AM
Done.
I also don't get where you were going with this.  :huh:

Presumably only the monied classes can keep the Peace that was the South. Even if the peace meant the murder of thousands of innocents, and the repression of millions.  And even if the monied class were traitors who made their fortunes on stolen labor.
I've given it serious thought. I must scorn the ways of my family, and seek a Japanese woman to yield me my progeny. He shall live in the lands of the east, and be well tutored in his sacred trust to weave the best traditions of Japan and the Sacred South together, until such time as he (or, indeed his house, which will periodically require infusion of both Southern and Japanese bloodlines of note) can deliver to the South it's independence, either in this world or in space.  -Lettow April of 2011

Raz is right. -MadImmortalMan March of 2017

derspiess

"If you can play a guitar and harmonica at the same time, like Bob Dylan or Neil Young, you're a genius. But make that extra bit of effort and strap some cymbals to your knees, suddenly people want to get the hell away from you."  --Rich Hall

garbon

Quote from: Admiral Yi on November 21, 2014, 01:39:38 AM
How hostile are they now?

I don't know that hostility is the issue today, so much as the current (which is just a continuation of its historical standing) beleaguered status of the South. Maybe a more radical approach would have helped, who knows?
"I've never been quite sure what the point of a eunuch is, if truth be told. It seems to me they're only men with the useful bits cut off."
I drank because I wanted to drown my sorrows, but now the damned things have learned to swim.

The Minsky Moment

Quote from: jimmy olsen on November 20, 2014, 11:32:24 PM
Quote from: Razgovory on November 20, 2014, 09:01:31 PM
The Union should have punished the Planter class by confiscating their land and redistributing it amongst poor whites and former slaves.
Yup. Not only would it be much more moral, it would be much more effective than mass executions.

The only problem is the tricky thing called the US constitution that guarantees property rights. So how would you pull that off for planters that did not take up arms in rebellion.

The comparison to the Reds in the 1930s (i.e. Stalin) highlights the problem. 
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Lettow77

Planters that did not take up arms in the rebellion? What, both of them?
It can't be helped...We'll have to use 'that'

Razgovory

Quote from: The Minsky Moment on November 21, 2014, 11:13:07 AM
Quote from: jimmy olsen on November 20, 2014, 11:32:24 PM
Quote from: Razgovory on November 20, 2014, 09:01:31 PM
The Union should have punished the Planter class by confiscating their land and redistributing it amongst poor whites and former slaves.
Yup. Not only would it be much more moral, it would be much more effective than mass executions.

The only problem is the tricky thing called the US constitution that guarantees property rights. So how would you pull that off for planters that did not take up arms in rebellion.

The comparison to the Reds in the 1930s (i.e. Stalin) highlights the problem.

The US had already superseded property rights of slave holders when it freed slaves (or destroyed property during the war).  Keep the states under military law till you have made the necessary changes.  Or you could require that slave holder reimburse all slaves back pay for their service.  That should be enough to bankrupt the planter class, and force them to sell the land to the government at very low rates.  The problems of the 1930's was not rebellious nobles, which is the point.
I've given it serious thought. I must scorn the ways of my family, and seek a Japanese woman to yield me my progeny. He shall live in the lands of the east, and be well tutored in his sacred trust to weave the best traditions of Japan and the Sacred South together, until such time as he (or, indeed his house, which will periodically require infusion of both Southern and Japanese bloodlines of note) can deliver to the South it's independence, either in this world or in space.  -Lettow April of 2011

Raz is right. -MadImmortalMan March of 2017

viper37

Quote from: Razgovory on November 21, 2014, 02:32:10 PM
Or you could require that slave holder reimburse all slaves back pay for their service. 
Not that I'm a lawyer, but I fail to see how this would have worked.

Slavery was legal until 1863.  Only on 1st January of this year was it made officially illegal.
The war ended in 1865.  So that's 2 year back pay.  I doubt very much that black citizens of the North earn the exact same pay as the white male at the time, so you'd have to make it, realistically, at half the pay of a white worker at the time.
That means roughtly 1 year of service owed by plantation owners who employed slaves.
From that, you deduce the cost of living: food&shelter offered to paid workers, cost of doctors&medicine.  Another half of the pay.  You got 6 months wages, realistically, and by the end of the war, 64-65, many slaves would most likely either have been freed or deserted their plantation by themselves due to the lack of an organized militia/army/police force to hunt them down.

So, on average, for all of the US southern states slaves, you got maybe 3 months pay that wasn't paid.  Hardly enough to break the system and make it fair&square to the slaves.
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garbon

Quote from: viper37 on November 21, 2014, 03:12:27 PM
From that, you deduce the cost of living: food&shelter offered to paid workers, cost of doctors&medicine.  Another half of the pay.  You got 6 months wages, realistically, and by the end of the war, 64-65, many slaves would most likely either have been freed or deserted their plantation by themselves due to the lack of an organized militia/army/police force to hunt them down.

So, on average, for all of the US southern states slaves, you got maybe 3 months pay that wasn't paid.  Hardly enough to break the system and make it fair&square to the slaves.

I don't really see why one would have to factor in any of that.
"I've never been quite sure what the point of a eunuch is, if truth be told. It seems to me they're only men with the useful bits cut off."
I drank because I wanted to drown my sorrows, but now the damned things have learned to swim.

Razgovory

Make it retroactive from the time the slave was born.  Or because the government is making the demands, they can consider what ever price the want as fair.  I imagine the price of murder, theft and rape is quite high.  There are of course lots of other ways to break the southern aristocracy.  They could be fined for every member of the family that fought against the Union, fined for failure to appear before Union draft boards, forced to pay back taxes, etc.  The goal is to destroy the Slave Power.  That's the way to true reconciliation.  Allowing the local elites to terrorize and tyrannize the black population is undesirable.
I've given it serious thought. I must scorn the ways of my family, and seek a Japanese woman to yield me my progeny. He shall live in the lands of the east, and be well tutored in his sacred trust to weave the best traditions of Japan and the Sacred South together, until such time as he (or, indeed his house, which will periodically require infusion of both Southern and Japanese bloodlines of note) can deliver to the South it's independence, either in this world or in space.  -Lettow April of 2011

Raz is right. -MadImmortalMan March of 2017