Human Rights Watch Warns of 'Authoritarian Drift' in Turkey

[Zanza]

The grounds are simple. He is not a German citizen, and hence has no interest in promoting German values, and hence should not be (and indeed it would be foolish to assume) assumed to have the same rights a German has inside Germany.

Western values are a social contract - not something that exists in some perfect vaccum outside how they are used. We give citizens certain rights because we assume that overall, the exercise of a countries polity in a free and open manner is the best way to serve the interests of the society.

Allowing a non-German to come into Germany and have German rights to freedom of expression is foolishness. They have no stake in German values, whatever they might be, and their human rights to their own freedom of experssion are pefectly adequately expressed from wherever it is they are coming from.

The German constitution clearly distinguishes between rights of humans and rights of citizens. Freedom of expression is a human right, not limited to citizens. So every person within the jurisdiction of our constitution has freedom of expression guaranteed, including the Turkish Wannabe-Sultan if he is allowed to come here.

As Turkey is still considered a friendly foreign state, its diplomats, including the president, are normally granted visa. Not sure if heads of state even need a visa under international common law. But Germany can clearly express that a visit is currently not politically feasible to their Turkish counterparts. So far Merkel didn't want to bite back at Erdogan. It's questionable whether that's the right approach. But then Turkey is still in NATO and associated with the EU, so it would be a bit strange to declare their president a persona non grata.

[Syt]

The German constitution clearly distinguishes between rights of humans and rights of citizens. Freedom of expression is a human right, not limited to citizens. So every person within the jurisdiction of our constitution has freedom of expression guaranteed, including the Turkish Wannabe-Sultan if he is allowed to come here.

Agreed. IIRC from my constitutional law classes, right of assembly, for example, is a citizen right ("Alle Deutschen haben das recht..."), which was debated when the PKK held demonstrations that blocked highways.

[Crazy_Ivan80]

And I'm far, far from an Erdogan sympathizer. But I'm a big believer in leading by example, particularly when we're criticizing a politician for shutting down freedom of speech in his own country. We're better than him and we should show him that we're strong and confident enough to deal with his bullshit.

that's a reasoning that's unlikely to ever convince people like Erdogan and his fellow islamists (as well as his fellow autocrats). They already know our system is superior: which is why they want to prevent it spreading by any and all means necessary.
What they also know is that for the past few decades our societies lack the will to actually say no. And so his kind will merrily (ab)use our freedoms to chip away at them. And with success.
Democracy isn't a suicide pact, and as such is't okay to say no when needed.

[Berkut]

The grounds are simple. He is not a German citizen, and hence has no interest in promoting German values, and hence should not be (and indeed it would be foolish to assume) assumed to have the same rights a German has inside Germany.

Western values are a social contract - not something that exists in some perfect vaccum outside how they are used. We give citizens certain rights because we assume that overall, the exercise of a countries polity in a free and open manner is the best way to serve the interests of the society.

Allowing a non-German to come into Germany and have German rights to freedom of expression is foolishness. They have no stake in German values, whatever they might be, and their human rights to their own freedom of experssion are pefectly adequately expressed from wherever it is they are coming from.

The German constitution clearly distinguishes between rights of humans and rights of citizens. Freedom of expression is a human right, not limited to citizens. So every person within the jurisdiction of our constitution has freedom of expression guaranteed, including the Turkish Wannabe-Sultan if he is allowed to come here.

Isn't that what I said?

As Turkey is still considered a friendly foreign state, its diplomats, including the president, are normally granted visa.

Political decision having nothing to do with those diplomats "rights".

Not sure if heads of state even need a visa under international common law.

I am not "sure", but yet I am sure. Because the alternative would say that under interntational law Germany has to let known criminals into Germany as long as they are "diplomats". I am quite confident that the issuance of diplomatic credentials is complete within a sovereign states powers, and has no bearing on rights at all.

Hence, issuance of such is a political act.

But Germany can clearly express that a visit is currently not politically feasible to their Turkish counterparts. So far Merkel didn't want to bite back at Erdogan. It's questionable whether that's the right approach. But then Turkey is still in NATO and associated with the EU, so it would be a bit strange to declare their president a persona non grata.

Almost as strange as the President of a fellow NATO power coming to your country to campaign on a platform of destroying the Western liberal values you cherish.

Again, all of this is politics. I am not saying Merkel should refuse to let Edrogan come fire up the masses, I am just saying the decision has nothing to with any of his "rights".

[Berkut]

And I'm far, far from an Erdogan sympathizer. But I'm a big believer in leading by example, particularly when we're criticizing a politician for shutting down freedom of speech in his own country. We're better than him and we should show him that we're strong and confident enough to deal with his bullshit.

that's a reasoning that's unlikely to ever convince people like Erdogan and his fellow islamists (as well as his fellow autocrats). They already know our system is superior: which is why they want to prevent it spreading by any and all means necessary.
What they also know is that for the past few decades our societies lack the will to actually say no. And so his kind will merrily (ab)use our freedoms to chip away at them. And with success.
Democracy isn't a suicide pact, and as such is't okay to say no when needed.

One thing that is really terrifying (to me anyway) is that for an Islamist, it doesn't matter that our way is provably "better" in the western sense of the word "better" - in that it does a superior job of providing happiness, wealth, equality, and freedom to people.

None of that matters, because they don't define better as being about any of those things. Better for an Islamist is more closely aligned with the the interpretation of the will of god. Not only is a poor, miserable, unfree, and misogynistic Islamic country vastly better than a rich, happy, free, and equal non-Islamist country, the existence of the latter is actually seen as simply an actively evil attempt the distract from what is actually important.

So we really cannot win by "proving" that the Western way is better, because for a Islamist, it is provably NOT better. If you believe what they believe they are right. Wealth, happiness, health, freedom - these are all just unimportant values used by satan to distract us from what IS important.

[Zanza]

The grounds are simple. He is not a German citizen, and hence has no interest in promoting German values, and hence should not be (and indeed it would be foolish to assume) assumed to have the same rights a German has inside Germany.

Western values are a social contract - not something that exists in some perfect vaccum outside how they are used. We give citizens certain rights because we assume that overall, the exercise of a countries polity in a free and open manner is the best way to serve the interests of the society.

Allowing a non-German to come into Germany and have German rights to freedom of expression is foolishness. They have no stake in German values, whatever they might be, and their human rights to their own freedom of experssion are pefectly adequately expressed from wherever it is they are coming from.

The German constitution clearly distinguishes between rights of humans and rights of citizens. Freedom of expression is a human right, not limited to citizens. So every person within the jurisdiction of our constitution has freedom of expression guaranteed, including the Turkish Wannabe-Sultan if he is allowed to come here.

Isn't that what I said?

You said one should not assume that Erdogan has the same rights as a German inside Germany, but when it comes to free speech he has the same rights as a German. So I don't think we said the same.

On whether he can come here in the first place we agree though. That's a privilege under political discretion.

[Berkut]

Ahh, gotcha. Yes, I didn't express that particularly well.

Agree that once he is IN Germany, he has every right to say what he likes.

[Crazy_Ivan80]

no privilege should be given: Turks are forbidden to campaign outside Turkey. Article 94A of Turkish electoral law prohibits this. So Erdogan has his clique of walking turds are breaking their own laws.

[dps]

no privilege should be given: Turks are forbidden to campaign outside Turkey. Article 94A of Turkish electoral law prohibits this. So Erdogan has his clique of walking turds are breaking their own laws.

It's not Germany's place to enforce Turkish laws, though, so this is irrelevant.

[Duque de Bragança]

Erdogan Calls Netherlands 'Fascists' After Minister's Plane Denied Permission to Land

The Dutch government withdrew permission for the foreign minister to touch down in Rotterdam. He had previously been barred from addressing a rally in the city.

The Dutch government on Saturday withdrew landing permission for the Turkish foreign minister's aircraft, drawing the ire of the Turkish president and escalating a diplomatic dispute between the two NATO allies over campaigning for a Turkish referendum on constitutional reform.
The Dutch government said in a statement it had withdrawn the permission because of "risks to public order and security" caused by the proposed visit of Foreign Minister Mevlut Cavusoglu to Rotterdam.
Turkish President Recep Tayyip Erdogan, referring to the Netherlands as 'fascists,' promised retaliation against Dutch diplomatic flights.
"You can stop our foreign minister's plane all you want, let's see how your planes will come to Turkey from now on," Erdogan said at a rally in Istanbul.
"They do not know politics or international diplomacy," said Erdogan and added, "these Nazi remnants, they are fascists," as the crowds booed.
"It's a crazy remark of course," Dutch Prime Minister Mark Rutte told journalists in response during campaigning for elections on March 15. "I understand they're angry, but this of course was way out of line."
Earlier Saturday, in an interview with private broadcaster CNN Turk, Cavusoglu said: "If the Netherlands cancels my flight permit, our sanctions to the Netherlands would be heavy."
He also repeated the government's charges that bans on rallies are "fascist practices."
Cavusoglu said that the German and Dutch bans on campaigns for a "yes" vote in the April 16 referendum on constitutional changes means that Europe is "taking a side for a 'no' vote." The constitutional changes would give the president more powers.
The Dutch government said it had been searching with Turkish authorities for an "acceptable solution" to Cavusoglu's plan to campaign in the Netherlands, but "before these talks were completed, Turkish authorities publicly threatened sanctions. That makes the search for a reasonable solution impossible."
The diplomatic row comes just days before the Netherlands goes to the polls in a March 15 election for the lower house of Parliament. The campaign has been dominated by issues of identity, with anti-Islam lawmaker Geert Wilders set to make strong gains.
Ahead of Saturday's decision, Wilders had accused the government of a weak response to Turkish plans to send ministers to the Netherlands to campaign.
The Dutch government said it does not object to meetings in the Netherlands to give information about the Turkish referendum, "but these meetings should not add to tensions in our society and everybody who wants to organize a meeting must adhere to instructions from authorities so that public order and security can be guaranteed."
It said the Turkish government "does not want to respect the rules in this matter."
Turkish President Tayyip Erdogan branded the Netherlands "Nazi remnants, fascists" on Saturday after the Dutch government withdrew permission for his Foreign Minister to land there.
The Dutch government on Saturday withdrew landing permission for the Turkish foreign minister's aircraft, escalating a diplomatic dispute between the two NATO allies over campaigning for a Turkish referendum on constitutional reform.
The Dutch government said in a statement it had withdrawn the permission because of "risks to public order and security" caused by the proposed visit of Foreign Minister Mevlut Cavusoglu to Rotterdam.
Earlier Saturday, in an interview with private broadcaster CNN Turk, Cavusoglu said: "If the Netherlands cancels my flight permit, our sanctions to the Netherlands would be heavy."
He also repeated the government's charges that bans on rallies are "fascist practices."
Cavusoglu said that the German and Dutch bans on campaigns for a "yes" vote in the April 16 referendum on constitutional changes means that Europe is "taking a side for a 'no' vote." The constitutional changes would give Turkish President Recep Tayyip Erdogan more powers.
The Dutch government said it was searching with Turkish authorities for an "acceptable solution" to Cavusoglu's plan to campaign in the Netherlands, but "before these talks were completed, Turkish authorities publicly threatened sanctions. That makes the search for a reasonable solution impossible."
The diplomatic row comes just days before the Netherlands goes to the polls in a March 15 election for the lower house of Parliament. The campaign has been dominated by issues of identity, with anti-Islam lawmaker Geert Wilders set to make strong gains.
Ahead of Saturday's decision, Wilders had accused the government of a weak response to Turkish plans to send ministers to the Netherlands to campaign.
The Dutch government said it does not object to meetings in the Netherlands to give information about the Turkish referendum, "but these meetings should not add to tensions in our society and everybody who wants to organize a meeting must adhere to instructions from authorities so that public order and security can be guaranteed."
It said the Turkish government "does not want to respect the rules in this matter."

http://www.haaretz.com/middle-east-news/turkey/1.776515

The Great Khan of the Turks, al-caliph wannabe goes Godwin.  Geert Wilders will probably benefit from it. Maybe the post-modern multiculturalist left should think about it.

[Crazy_Ivan80]

no privilege should be given: Turks are forbidden to campaign outside Turkey. Article 94A of Turkish electoral law prohibits this. So Erdogan has his clique of walking turds are breaking their own laws.

It's not Germany's place to enforce Turkish laws, though, so this is irrelevant.

it's an argument to be used against the fascist scum.
If arguments are still useful. It's probably better to start the deportations of Erdogan-supporters back to their "greener pasture"

[Maladict]

Erdogan Calls Netherlands 'Fascists' After Minister's Plane Denied Permission to Land

The Dutch government withdrew permission for the foreign minister to touch down in Rotterdam. He had previously been barred from addressing a rally in the city.

The Dutch government on Saturday withdrew landing permission for the Turkish foreign minister's aircraft, drawing the ire of the Turkish president and escalating a diplomatic dispute between the two NATO allies over campaigning for a Turkish referendum on constitutional reform.
The Dutch government said in a statement it had withdrawn the permission because of "risks to public order and security" caused by the proposed visit of Foreign Minister Mevlut Cavusoglu to Rotterdam.
Turkish President Recep Tayyip Erdogan, referring to the Netherlands as 'fascists,' promised retaliation against Dutch diplomatic flights.
"You can stop our foreign minister's plane all you want, let's see how your planes will come to Turkey from now on," Erdogan said at a rally in Istanbul.
"They do not know politics or international diplomacy," said Erdogan and added, "these Nazi remnants, they are fascists," as the crowds booed.
"It's a crazy remark of course," Dutch Prime Minister Mark Rutte told journalists in response during campaigning for elections on March 15. "I understand they're angry, but this of course was way out of line."
Earlier Saturday, in an interview with private broadcaster CNN Turk, Cavusoglu said: "If the Netherlands cancels my flight permit, our sanctions to the Netherlands would be heavy."
He also repeated the government's charges that bans on rallies are "fascist practices."
Cavusoglu said that the German and Dutch bans on campaigns for a "yes" vote in the April 16 referendum on constitutional changes means that Europe is "taking a side for a 'no' vote." The constitutional changes would give the president more powers.
The Dutch government said it had been searching with Turkish authorities for an "acceptable solution" to Cavusoglu's plan to campaign in the Netherlands, but "before these talks were completed, Turkish authorities publicly threatened sanctions. That makes the search for a reasonable solution impossible."
The diplomatic row comes just days before the Netherlands goes to the polls in a March 15 election for the lower house of Parliament. The campaign has been dominated by issues of identity, with anti-Islam lawmaker Geert Wilders set to make strong gains.
Ahead of Saturday's decision, Wilders had accused the government of a weak response to Turkish plans to send ministers to the Netherlands to campaign.
The Dutch government said it does not object to meetings in the Netherlands to give information about the Turkish referendum, "but these meetings should not add to tensions in our society and everybody who wants to organize a meeting must adhere to instructions from authorities so that public order and security can be guaranteed."
It said the Turkish government "does not want to respect the rules in this matter."
Turkish President Tayyip Erdogan branded the Netherlands "Nazi remnants, fascists" on Saturday after the Dutch government withdrew permission for his Foreign Minister to land there.
The Dutch government on Saturday withdrew landing permission for the Turkish foreign minister's aircraft, escalating a diplomatic dispute between the two NATO allies over campaigning for a Turkish referendum on constitutional reform.
The Dutch government said in a statement it had withdrawn the permission because of "risks to public order and security" caused by the proposed visit of Foreign Minister Mevlut Cavusoglu to Rotterdam.
Earlier Saturday, in an interview with private broadcaster CNN Turk, Cavusoglu said: "If the Netherlands cancels my flight permit, our sanctions to the Netherlands would be heavy."
He also repeated the government's charges that bans on rallies are "fascist practices."
Cavusoglu said that the German and Dutch bans on campaigns for a "yes" vote in the April 16 referendum on constitutional changes means that Europe is "taking a side for a 'no' vote." The constitutional changes would give Turkish President Recep Tayyip Erdogan more powers.
The Dutch government said it was searching with Turkish authorities for an "acceptable solution" to Cavusoglu's plan to campaign in the Netherlands, but "before these talks were completed, Turkish authorities publicly threatened sanctions. That makes the search for a reasonable solution impossible."
The diplomatic row comes just days before the Netherlands goes to the polls in a March 15 election for the lower house of Parliament. The campaign has been dominated by issues of identity, with anti-Islam lawmaker Geert Wilders set to make strong gains.
Ahead of Saturday's decision, Wilders had accused the government of a weak response to Turkish plans to send ministers to the Netherlands to campaign.
The Dutch government said it does not object to meetings in the Netherlands to give information about the Turkish referendum, "but these meetings should not add to tensions in our society and everybody who wants to organize a meeting must adhere to instructions from authorities so that public order and security can be guaranteed."
It said the Turkish government "does not want to respect the rules in this matter."

http://www.haaretz.com/middle-east-news/turkey/1.776515

The Great Khan of the Turks, al-caliph wannabe goes Godwin.  Geert Wilders will probably benefit from it. Maybe the post-modern multiculturalist left should think about it.

The Dutch government said they were not welcome given the circumstances, but they would not be stopped either. According to the PM they were still discussing a solution when the Turks started threatening economic sanctions. That's where it ended and the Turkish delegation was refused entry. Erdigan wins either way,of course. And I'm sure Wilders will pick up a few more votes, just as his poll numbers were dropping. Just what we needed

[celedhring]

Wilders would have probably benefited more from an incendiary Turkish rally on Dutch soil.

[Ed Anger]

I'm enjoying the hot Dutch police action against Turks in Rotterdam on the youtube. HOTT

[Maladict]

That escalated quickly