Human Rights Watch Warns of 'Authoritarian Drift' in Turkey

[celedhring]

It's pretty usual in Spain to have politicians from Latin America come campaign among their emigrated constituencies.

It's not fair comparing them to Herr Dogan though, is it? Or as "fair" as calling them sudacas I guess.

It is very fair when it comes to the law though. If we had a sizable Turkish minority that merited a visit from him, we couldn't stop Erdogan from campaigning here while allowing the others. Then again I won't comment on other countries' laws regarding these matters. Just wanted to point out that foreign politicians campaigning in one's country isn't such a weird occurrence.

Showing your age with "sudaca" btw. That slur is pretty passé nowadays.

[Duque de Bragança]

It's pretty usual in Spain to have politicians from Latin America come campaign among their emigrated constituencies.

It's not fair comparing them to Herr Dogan though, is it? Or as "fair" as calling them sudacas I guess.

It is very fair when it comes to the law though. If we had a sizable Turkish minority that merited a visit from him, we couldn't stop Erdogan from campaigning here while allowing the others. Then again I won't comment on other countries' laws regarding these matters. Just wanted to point out that foreign politicians campaigning in one's country isn't such a weird occurrence.

Showing your age with "sudaca" btw. That slur is pretty passé nowadays.

Erdogan-style political campaign is more than a "weird" occurence. As for laws, there rights and duties. Using these rallies for fifth columns is not a right. The taqqiya-based politics of Islamists is not a fair use of rights, specially when he violates basic rights at home.
Stop finding excuses to islamist politicians all the time. I know you on the left love islam but your arses are on the line too.
FFS, even Raz stopped defending him.

You'll tell sudaca is pretty passé to those who still get called that. Oh, and passé is not the same as un-PC. 

[Malicious Intent]

I remember discussing Turkish issues with a Turkish friend once.
She dismissed the Turkish community in Germany as all being kurds.
No doubt she was exaggerating. But it would make sense for them to be over represented

Kurds are strongly represented (Kurds made up 1/3 of the original wave of Turkish guest workers in the 60s), but they are not the majority among Turks in Germany. According to Wiki, there are 500.000 to 800.000 Kurds in Germany, but this also includes those from Iraq, Syria and Iran. We have around 3 million people with a Turkish migration background (including Turkish Kurds), half of them holding Turkish citizenship.

[Berkut]

It's pretty usual in Spain to have politicians from Latin America come campaign among their emigrated constituencies.

It's not fair comparing them to Herr Dogan though, is it? Or as "fair" as calling them sudacas I guess.

It is very fair when it comes to the law though. If we had a sizable Turkish minority that merited a visit from him, we couldn't stop Erdogan from campaigning here while allowing the others. Then again I won't comment on other countries' laws regarding these matters. Just wanted to point out that foreign politicians campaigning in one's country isn't such a weird occurrence.

Showing your age with "sudaca" btw. That slur is pretty passé nowadays.

Erdogan-style political campaign is more than a "weird" occurence. As for laws, there rights and duties. Using these rallies for fifth columns is not a right. The taqqiya-based politics of Islamists is not a fair use of rights, specially when he violates basic rights at home.
Stop finding excuses to islamist politicians all the time. I know you on the left love islam but your arses are on the line too.
FFS, even Raz stopped defending him.

You'll tell sudaca is pretty passé to those who still get it called. Oh, and passé is not the same as un-PC. 

Yeah, I don't see how Germany has any "duty" at all to allow any particular political party to come and say whatever they like. If they think Edrogan is a tool, they have every right to just tell him to stay home.

Whether they ought to do that or not is another question, of course - but that is a political question, not a question of rights or duties.

[celedhring]

Erdogan-style political campaign is more than a "weird" occurence. As for laws, there rights and duties. Using these rallies for fifth columns is not a right. The taqqiya-based politics of Islamists is not a fair use of rights, specially when he violates basic rights at home.
Stop finding excuses to islamist politicians all the time. I know you on the left love islam but your arses are on the line too.
FFS, even Raz stopped defending him.

You'll tell sudaca is pretty passé to those who still get it called. Oh, and passé is not the same as un-PC. 

Oh, so I'm a culture traitor now? Whatever floats your boat man. I'm a pretty big believer on the strength of Western values, and in order to show that strength and serve as an example, you need to actually practice them and not be selective about who gets to benefit from them depending on which god they happen to pray.

That doesn't mean we to sit and smile while Erdogan bashes our society. But banning him? Yeah, I have trouble with that. If any Spanish politician could say what Erdogan says and not end up fined or whatever, Erdogan can say it. That's my bar.

I haven't heard the word "sudaca" in years, and that's because we have brand new slurs for Latin Americans. That's all I meant.

[Berkut]

Edrogan can say whatever he likes. From Turkey.

He has no "right" to say anything in Germany unless Germany allows him to visit, and that choice is a political choice, not one of rights. There is no "western value" that says that a western country must allow anyone from another country in under any circumstances.

[celedhring]

Edrogan can say whatever he likes. From Turkey.

He has no "right" to say anything in Germany unless Germany allows him to visit, and that choice is a political choice, not one of rights. There is no "western value" that says that a western country must allow anyone from another country in under any circumstances.

There is, imho, if the grounds of denying "right to visit" is limiting freedom or expression or other rights that anyone in Germany would enjoy. If what Erdogan says is something that any German citizen could say freely, I think he should be able to do that - if he otherwise would be allowed to visit. If there are laws in Germany that do limit what kind of things you can say in a political rally - fair enough. We have laws forbidding incitement against the Constitutional order, but our courts have set a very high bar for enforcement.

And I'm far, far from an Erdogan sympathizer. But I'm a big believer in leading by example, particularly when we're criticizing a politician for shutting down freedom of speech in his own country. We're better than him and we should show him that we're strong and confident enough to deal with his bullshit.

[Berkut]

Edrogan can say whatever he likes. From Turkey.

He has no "right" to say anything in Germany unless Germany allows him to visit, and that choice is a political choice, not one of rights. There is no "western value" that says that a western country must allow anyone from another country in under any circumstances.

There is, imho, if the grounds of denying "right to visit" is limiting freedom or expression or other rights that anyone in Germany would enjoy. If what Erdogan says is something that any German citizen could say freely, I don't see the grounds for denying the visit - if he otherwise would be allowed. If there are laws in Germany that do limit what kind of things you can say in a political rally - fair enough. We have laws forbidding incitement against the Constitutional order, but our courts have set a very high bar for enforcement.

The grounds are simple. He is not a German citizen, and hence has no interest in promoting German values, and hence should not be (and indeed it would be foolish to assume) assumed to have the same rights a German has inside Germany.

Western values are a social contract - not something that exists in some perfect vaccum outside how they are used. We give citizens certain rights because we assume that overall, the exercise of a countries polity in a free and open manner is the best way to serve the interests of the society.

Allowing a non-German to come into Germany and have German rights to freedom of expression is foolishness. They have no stake in German values, whatever they might be, and their human rights to their own freedom of experssion are pefectly adequately expressed from wherever it is they are coming from.

It might be a matter of value to Germany to allow them to come into Germany and speak, and it might not. In most cases, it is probably of greater value for Germany to allow people to speak, even if they are not Germans. But the idea that a non-German has the *right* to visit Germany for the express purpose of engaging in political speech which may very well be completely detrimental to German interests is the kind of self-immolation that the left is accused of  - forgetting that these idea of Western values are not theoretical ideals, but practical and real policies that have actual effects.

A German in Germany wants to speak out about the Turkish elections? Knock yourself out.

A Turk already in Germany (immigrant, guest worker) wants to do the same? OK - although I would be willing to accept that the desire to say certain things might be cause to consider allowing them to immigrate in the first place.
A Turk from Turkey wanting permission to visit Germany for the purpose of political speech? That person has no German "right" to visit Germany. This is a political decision, not a question of rights.

[celedhring]

Fair enough, you probably have a point. I still believe that the political decision should always err on the side of allowing speech, if that same speech could be uttered by a German resident. Let's flip it: do we believe that European politicians should be able to travel to Turkey and criticize the Turkish regime while they are there? Because Merkel did that this February, although certainly in a more polite and restrained way that Erdogan would ever do.

[garbon]

Fair enough, you probably have a point. I still believe that the political decision should always err on the side of allowing speech, if that same speech could be uttered by a German resident. Let's flip it: do we believe that European politicians should be able to travel to Turkey and criticize the Turkish regime while they are there? Because Merkel did that this February, although certainly in a more polite and restrained way that Erdogan would ever do.

Yeah, I mean we didn't ban Ahmadinejad from speaking at Columbia. Government left that up to Columbia.

I would guess in Germany it would depend on who has the devolved powers to prevent such political rallying. AKA is it something that the local politicians have sway on or is it something higher up on level of banning said individuals from coming into the country (in the same way that UK has banned some foreign nationals for entering because of past speech).

[Malicious Intent]

Unless I missed some very recent development, Erdogan or his ministers are currently not forbidden from entering Germany, though there are some calls for a ban. Planned political rallies by the AKP have been banned on an individual level by the regional authorities, usually citing security concerns. The real reasons for the ban are of course Turkey's drift to authoritarian rule, constant verbal attacks by the AKP on German politicians and the fact that the AKP used these rallies in the past to actively oppose German interests.

[Berkut]

Fair enough, you probably have a point. I still believe that the political decision should always err on the side of allowing speech, if that same speech could be uttered by a German resident. Let's flip it: do we believe that European politicians should be able to travel to Turkey and criticize the Turkish regime while they are there? Because Merkel did that this February, although certainly in a more polite and restrained way that Erdogan would ever do.

I think if Edrogan wanted to travel to Germany as the PM of Turkey, and while there he criticized Germany, that is basically fine - but again, the decision to let another head of state visit is a *political decision*. He doesn't have a "right" to visit.

If the head of North Korea wanted to travel to Germany, they certainly could refuse to let them in. They have no "*right* to visit.

I think Turkey has every right to deny entry to European politicians as well. Again, that is a political decision with political consequences.

[Malicious Intent]

Fair enough, you probably have a point. I still believe that the political decision should always err on the side of allowing speech, if that same speech could be uttered by a German resident. Let's flip it: do we believe that European politicians should be able to travel to Turkey and criticize the Turkish regime while they are there? Because Merkel did that this February, although certainly in a more polite and restrained way that Erdogan would ever do.

Criticism during official visits is nothing uncommon. You often see press conferences of two head of states who issue criticisms, though usually in a polite way.

[Malicious Intent]

I think Turkey has every right to deny entry to European politicians as well. Again, that is a political decision with political consequences.

See the crisis after the German parliament called the Armenian genocide a genocide (while clearing modern Turkey of any responsibility). Turkey answered by banning German MPs from visiting Bundeswehr troops in Incirlik.

[celedhring]

Fair enough, you probably have a point. I still believe that the political decision should always err on the side of allowing speech, if that same speech could be uttered by a German resident. Let's flip it: do we believe that European politicians should be able to travel to Turkey and criticize the Turkish regime while they are there? Because Merkel did that this February, although certainly in a more polite and restrained way that Erdogan would ever do.

Yeah, I mean we didn't ban Ahmadinejad from speaking at Columbia. Government left that up to Columbia.

I would guess in Germany it would depend on who has the devolved powers to prevent such political rallying. AKA is it something that the local politicians have sway on or is it something higher up on level of banning said individuals from coming into the country (in the same way that UK has banned some foreign nationals for entering because of past speech).

I was on campus that day, and it was a great triumph for freedom of speech. The guy got to say his piece, but he had to face pretty direct criticism from the Columbia speakers. He lashed out at that, but that's what freedom of speech is about.