Columbia student carrying mattress until school expels her rapist

[Barrister]

Do you assume guilt of everyone accused of a crime?

Mostly.

[Jacob]

Do you assume guilt of everyone accused of a crime?

Mostly.

[grumbler]

"Cultural attitude"? I'm not sure what you mean by this?

She didn't want to pursue it when faced with a bunch of abrasive people proceeding from the assumption that she was lying. She figured there wasn't going to be any results, and they were making her feel more miserable, so she backed down.

Later, when learning that she wasn't alone, she decided she shouldn't be silent and she decided she wanted to deal with it by taking a stand on her terms.

That seems perfectly normal to me.

It has nothing to do with "cultural attitudes" and nothing to do with fearing stigma, it has to do with not wanting to be made to feel like shit and backing down, and then later figuring out that the best way to not feel like shit is to confront the issue.

You have the sequence of events wrong, btw.  She never went to the police until months after she lost her case in front of the misconduct panel.

And, incidentally, the only evidence we have that the police didn't believe her is her own self-serving assertions that the police behaved exactly as she claims she thought they would when she decided initially that her rape wasn't worth reporting to the cops.

But, as you say, your interpretation of facts is shaded by your initial assumptions about her honesty.  More facts won't change anything.

[grumbler]

That's a pretty obviously self-serving statement to explain why she waited so long to make the complaint. Again, rather inconsistent with her stated beliefs and behavours.

It's obvious, perhaps, if you start from the assumption that she's lying.

Its also obvious if you don't start with any assumptions about her honesty. It's not obviously only when you start with the assumption that odds are 95 out of a hundred that she is telling the truth, and then don't allow any facts to alter your near-certainty.

[garbon]

I found this one bit on stats for false rape claims (in general). Haven't had a chance to read fully but I like how it said a review of literature has estimates from 1.5% to 90%. 

http://ndaa.org/pdf/the_voice_vol_3_no_1_2009.pdf

And then there was this person on reddit who put together some stuff and summarized this:
http://www.reddit.com/r/MensRights/comments/1o74n7/facts_and_statistics_about_false_rape_claims_a/

TLDR:

• At least 6% of rape claims are false
• The vast majority of rape claims are unknown whether they are true or false
• The 6% figure does not include mistaken accusations where the accuser was raped but named the wrong defendant
• The 6% figure only includes those cases where there is strong proof it was false
• False rape claims often result in serious harm, even the ones that do not end in conviction
• Punishing false accusers does not mean that a genuine rape accuser would be prosecuted if they could not prove they were raped
• False rape claims are 4x more common than false claims of other crimes
• Rape victims receive a lot of help, but false rape claim victims receive virtually none - this should be changed.

[garbon]

"Cultural attitude"? I'm not sure what you mean by this?

She didn't want to pursue it when faced with a bunch of abrasive people proceeding from the assumption that she was lying. She figured there wasn't going to be any results, and they were making her feel more miserable, so she backed down.

Later, when learning that she wasn't alone, she decided she shouldn't be silent and she decided she wanted to deal with it by taking a stand on her terms.

That seems perfectly normal to me.

It has nothing to do with "cultural attitudes" and nothing to do with fearing stigma, it has to do with not wanting to be made to feel like shit and backing down, and then later figuring out that the best way to not feel like shit is to confront the issue.

You have the sequence of events wrong, btw.  She never went to the police until months after she lost her case in front of the misconduct panel.

And, incidentally, the only evidence we have that the police didn't believe her is her own self-serving assertions that the police behaved exactly as she claims she thought they would when she decided initially that her rape wasn't worth reporting to the cops.

But, as you say, your interpretation of facts is shaded by your initial assumptions about her honesty.  More facts won't change anything.

One thing I'm curious about, but I suppose we'll never know because of privacy concerns, is what exactly did university do when she first filed complaint. Seems like police would have tried to get a statement from her then, no?

[grumbler]

"Cultural attitude"? I'm not sure what you mean by this?

She didn't want to pursue it when faced with a bunch of abrasive people proceeding from the assumption that she was lying. She figured there wasn't going to be any results, and they were making her feel more miserable, so she backed down.

Later, when learning that she wasn't alone, she decided she shouldn't be silent and she decided she wanted to deal with it by taking a stand on her terms.

That seems perfectly normal to me.

It has nothing to do with "cultural attitudes" and nothing to do with fearing stigma, it has to do with not wanting to be made to feel like shit and backing down, and then later figuring out that the best way to not feel like shit is to confront the issue.

You have the sequence of events wrong, btw.  She never went to the police until months after she lost her case in front of the misconduct panel.

And, incidentally, the only evidence we have that the police didn't believe her is her own self-serving assertions that the police behaved exactly as she claims she thought they would when she decided initially that her rape wasn't worth reporting to the cops.

But, as you say, your interpretation of facts is shaded by your initial assumptions about her honesty.  More facts won't change anything.

One thing I'm curious about, but I suppose we'll never know because of privacy concerns, is what exactly did university do when she first filed complaint. Seems like police would have tried to get a statement from her then, no?

The procedure (and I know this from a case that was processed about a year ago at Michigan and involved a football player, so had a lot of leaks and violations of confidentiality and student-privacy laws) is that
(1) the student alleging rape can report it to any official of the school, but usually does this through an RA if in the dorms, or campus security if not in the dorm.  Whoever is approached is required by federal law to encourage the student to report the matter to the police, but the ,university officials can't force this and can't allow the student's decision to impact their own investigation.
(1a) if a university official becomes aware of a potential sexual assault (for instance, from police reports even if the student who is filing the complaint does want the university involved), they also must stat an investigation.
(2) the university appoints an investigating officer (they have several of these around, usually ex-cops, specifically to do misconduct investigations) who investigates and reaches a recommended ruling.  The accuser and accused both gets copies of the investigation results, with the caveat that they are not to show these to anyone outside the process nor to make any copies - the absolute privacy of the process is required by federal law.
(3) the university convenes a hearing in front of a student misconduct panel, to consider the evidence of the report in light of any additional statements or comments from the accuser and accused.  Each of the students involved can bring one advocate with them, who is not allowed to speak to the tribunal but can speak to their principal.  Again, strict privacy is enjoined.
(4) the panel meets again to consider the investigator's recommendations in light of the testimony of the principals, and decides what the disposition of the case is.  The principals are notified of the results of this deliberation.
(5) Either or both principals can appeal the decision of the panel to the dean of students.  The results of these appeals, if any, are final.

The worst sanction that the panel can impose is expulsion.  It has no power to impose monetary penalties, but can do things like requiring the advocate of a principal who is contemptuous of student privacy to write essays about student privacy.

The only results that can be publicly revealed are the fact of expulsion if a student is, indeed, expelled, and the reasons for the expulsion.

[garbon]

Ah so the university is aware of - but police are only contacted if victim chooses to contact police themselves?

[derspiess]

Speaking of Michigan...

http://www.examiner.com/article/university-of-michigan-says-that-withholding-sex-is-sexual-violence

lol wut

[Martinus]

Speaking of Michigan...

http://www.examiner.com/article/university-of-michigan-says-that-withholding-sex-is-sexual-violence

lol wut

Not sure what is more confusing - the UoMichigan's policy or the article by this "news examiner".

[derspiess]

http://hr.umich.edu/stopabuse/resources/definitions.html

Sexual violence
Examples of sexual violence include: discounting the partner's feelings regarding sex; criticizing the partner sexually; touching the partner sexually in inappropriate and uncomfortable ways; withholding sex and affection; always demanding sex; forcing partner to strip as a form of humiliation (maybe in front of children), to witness sexual acts, to participate in uncomfortable sex or sex after an episode of violence, to have sex with other people; and using objects and/or weapons to hurt during sex or threats to back up demands for sex.

[The Brain]

Fuck, now I have to carry around my oversized mattress.

[Caliga]

IOW every man's wife is sexually violent.

[derspiess]

Fuck, now I have to carry around my oversized mattress.

I bet mine is bigger.  California King FTW

[Tonitrus]

I dunno, if you have a member of the tribunal asking questions like "dur, how can you even do anal without lubricant?", that doesn't sound very competent to me.  That sounds like a clown college court.

As I said, the idea of the college even thinking that having an administrative "tribunal" to decide a serious criminal issue such as rape is preposterous.  If a coworker at General Motors rapes you, you don't have the Board of Directors take witness statements and come up with a ruling.

We don't know that any of the details of the hearing except her self-serving claims.  And the idea that universities have tribunals to rle on student misconduct (not criminal cases - that's for the criminal justice system - isn't preposterous at all.  If a student cheats on a paper, or behaves in an intolerable manner, you don't go to court - the court would laugh the cases right back out.  I don't think that General Motors has a code of conduct to be ruled on.

That's what I said in my other post...criminal-level offenses like rape should not even be contemplated by a university panel.  Cheating, plagiarism, and smoking in the boys room?  Have at it.