Scottish Independence: Quebec Edition

[Zanza]

No, here in Canada at least, that most certainly was not the case. Not that the British Empire/Canada was nice and perfect in its relations to native Canadians, but they did not, by any reasonable description, "kill or ethnically cleanse" the existing Native American population (which very much still exists today).

Maybe not actively, but I am sure the natives in Canada also died in droves from Eurasian diseases. Or there were just barely any people living in Canada which would also not make it an example for the old world, which happened to be full of people when states started to form. 

[garbon]

Despite countless genocides and ethnic cleansings, there are just more coherent ethnic groups left in the old world. 

Despite?

[Zanza]

Might be the wrong word in English. Would "Even after" work better?

[Barrister]

Might be the wrong word in English. Would "Even after" work better?

"because of" might be the better term.

[mongers]

Might be the wrong word in English. Would "Even after" work better?

No, I think Garbon is intimating that that ethic cleaning, war and genocide have defined and delineated those coherent ethnic states ?

[garbon]

Might be the wrong word in English. Would "Even after" work better?

No, I think Garbon is intimating that that ethic cleaning, war and genocide have defined and delineated those coherent ethnic states ?

Yeah exactly. Genocide/ethnic cleansing lead to more coherent ethnic states. After all, that's their whole goal.

[mongers]

Might be the wrong word in English. Would "Even after" work better?

No, I think Garbon is intimating that that ethic cleaning, war and genocide have defined and delineated those coherent ethnic states ?

Yeah exactly. Genocide/ethnic cleansing lead to more coherent ethnic states. After all, that's their whole goal.

Bugger, Garbon agrees with me on something; I'll have to give up and close my account.   

[Malthus]

No, here in Canada at least, that most certainly was not the case. Not that the British Empire/Canada was nice and perfect in its relations to native Canadians, but they did not, by any reasonable description, "kill or ethnically cleanse" the existing Native American population (which very much still exists today).

Maybe not actively, but I am sure the natives in Canada also died in droves from Eurasian diseases. Or there were just barely any people living in Canada which would also not make it an example for the old world, which happened to be full of people when states started to form.

There are currently 1.4 million native Canadians living in Canada, as of 2011.

Estimates as to the pre-Columbian population vary widely - some claim a low of 900,000, others a (considered by most absurd) high of 18 million for the population of North America north of the Mexican border as a whole:

http://www.britannica.com/EBchecked/topic/1357826/Native-American/261421/Plains-Woodland-and-Plains-Village-cultures#toc273135

The current US population is, of course, much larger than that of Canada, and would reasonably have been much larger in antiquity. Say that Canada made up about 1/10th of the total. That would put the native population (according to the very highest estimate, which no-one seriously believes nowadays) at about the same now as then; by the lowest possible estimate, it has grown by more like 15 times.

[Zanza]

I see your point now.
It's not what I originally wanted to say but I somehow left half of my thought unwritten. What I wanted to say is that despite those genocides and ethnic cleansings there are coherent ethnic groups that are still intermingled geographically in the old world. So the group is clearly defined against other groups (that's what I meant with coherent), yet it might still be mixed with those other groups.

[Barrister]

No, here in Canada at least, that most certainly was not the case. Not that the British Empire/Canada was nice and perfect in its relations to native Canadians, but they did not, by any reasonable description, "kill or ethnically cleanse" the existing Native American population (which very much still exists today).

Maybe not actively, but I am sure the natives in Canada also died in droves from Eurasian diseases. Or there were just barely any people living in Canada which would also not make it an example for the old world, which happened to be full of people when states started to form.

There are currently 1.4 million native Canadians living in Canada, as of 2011.

Estimates as to the pre-Columbian population vary widely - some claim a low of 900,000, others a (considered by most absurd) high of 18 million for the population of North America north of the Mexican border as a whole:

http://www.britannica.com/EBchecked/topic/1357826/Native-American/261421/Plains-Woodland-and-Plains-Village-cultures#toc273135

The current US population is, of course, much larger than that of Canada, and would reasonably have been much larger in antiquity. Say that Canada made up about 1/10th of the total. That would put the native population (according to the very highest estimate, which no-one seriously believes nowadays) at about the same now as then; by the lowest possible estimate, it has grown by more like 15 times.

I believe, but would have to check some books, that not only do people seriously believe the higher estimates, but there is evidence to support even higher numbers.

[Zanza]

There are currently 1.4 million native Canadians living in Canada, as of 2011.

Estimates as to the pre-Columbian population vary widely - some claim a low of 900,000, others a (considered by most absurd) high of 18 million for the population of North America north of the Mexican border as a whole:

http://www.britannica.com/EBchecked/topic/1357826/Native-American/261421/Plains-Woodland-and-Plains-Village-cultures#toc273135

The current US population is, of course, much larger than that of Canada, and would reasonably have been much larger in antiquity. Say that Canada made up about 1/10th of the total. That would put the native population (according to the very highest estimate, which no-one seriously believes nowadays) at about the same now as then; by the lowest possible estimate, it has grown by more like 15 times.

Fine. So Canada was empty and can't serve as an example for the densely populated Eurasian continent and state formation there.

[garbon]

There are currently 1.4 million native Canadians living in Canada, as of 2011.

Estimates as to the pre-Columbian population vary widely - some claim a low of 900,000, others a (considered by most absurd) high of 18 million for the population of North America north of the Mexican border as a whole:

http://www.britannica.com/EBchecked/topic/1357826/Native-American/261421/Plains-Woodland-and-Plains-Village-cultures#toc273135

The current US population is, of course, much larger than that of Canada, and would reasonably have been much larger in antiquity. Say that Canada made up about 1/10th of the total. That would put the native population (according to the very highest estimate, which no-one seriously believes nowadays) at about the same now as then; by the lowest possible estimate, it has grown by more like 15 times.

Fine. So Canada was empty and can't serve as an example for the densely populated Eurasian continent and state formation there.

I thought the example was just that Canadians/Americans are actually the balls of light that Euros should aspire to be.

[Malthus]

I believe, but would have to check some books, that not only do people seriously believe the higher estimates, but there is evidence to support even higher numbers.

From what I remember, the controversey is mostly over the alleged high density population of the agricultural tracts in the US South - such as those villages and cities that supported the Missisipian culture (and still existed after its more or less collapse - for example, to form the villages and cities reported by De Soto's expedition).

Even assuming these ancient demographers are correct - and their numbers tend to be pretty flimsy in support - that's a controversy that would not impact much on native demographics in Canada.

[Berkut]

Now, in point of fact, some places were temporarily not inhabited when European colonization took place - mostly because of inter-native wars, such as the infamous war of extermination between the Iroquous confederacy and the Hurons.

That is clearly bullshit.

We all know Native Americans just rode around on their horses "counting coup" on each other - war for them was really more of a sport, to pass the time between their careful husbandry of the forest and occasional hunting of a deer or buffalo, which they scrupulously used all of for some purpose after asking the animals forgiveness for any pain they may have caused.

[Malthus]

Now, in point of fact, some places were temporarily not inhabited when European colonization took place - mostly because of inter-native wars, such as the infamous war of extermination between the Iroquous confederacy and the Hurons.

That is clearly bullshit.

We all know Native Americans just rode around on their horses "counting coup" on each other - war for them was really more of a sport, to pass the time between their careful husbandry of the forest and occasional hunting of a deer or buffalo, which they scrupulously used all of for some purpose after asking the animals forgiveness for any pain they may have caused.

http://www.pinterest.com/pin/245305510927148043/