The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD

[derspiess]

Well I certainly never got that impression in Canada. There were a couple of cultural adjustments related to police that I encountered when I moved down here. One was the aforementioned mentality. The other was the sheer number of police vehicles seen on the streets down here.

It varies a bit from town to town and neighborhood to neighborhood.  My kids get excited when they see all the police vehicles downtown, because they never see any in our own neighborhood.

[Maximus]

My impression is that the Toronto cops at least have grown a lot *less* like that: the "us versus them" meme was very strong when I was growing up, and the cops were notorious for doing stuff that would be largely unthinkable or highly scandalous now (the infamous "Cherry Beach Express" was an example - the cops were known to take 'undesireables' they had no actual reason to book down to Cherry Beach - then a very isolated and deserted place at night - and beat the living shit out of them).

City police may well be different. I had mostly only dealt with RCMP.

[Malthus]

My impression is that the Toronto cops at least have grown a lot *less* like that: the "us versus them" meme was very strong when I was growing up, and the cops were notorious for doing stuff that would be largely unthinkable or highly scandalous now (the infamous "Cherry Beach Express" was an example - the cops were known to take 'undesireables' they had no actual reason to book down to Cherry Beach - then a very isolated and deserted place at night - and beat the living shit out of them).

City police may well be different. I had mostly only dealt with RCMP.

True - in Toronto, the only time we ever saw the RCMP was when they did that musical ride thing at the royal fair. 

[Maximus]

Actually now that I think about it, the Saskatoon Police had also had a scandal maybe 10-12 years ago where they would take drunks outside of the city and let them walk back. These drunks were mostly natives and some of them apparently froze to death out there.

So maybe it's just an RCMP thing.

[Jacob]

My impression is that the Toronto cops at least have grown a lot *less* like that: the "us versus them" meme was very strong when I was growing up, and the cops were notorious for doing stuff that would be largely unthinkable or highly scandalous now (the infamous "Cherry Beach Express" was an example - the cops were known to take 'undesireables' they had no actual reason to book down to Cherry Beach - then a very isolated and deserted place at night - and beat the living shit out of them).

Yeah, stories like that could be found everywhere across Canada - I heard them about the Sûreté du Québec when I lived in Ottawa, and I heard it about the VPD in Vancouver. It is my impression that there's less of it now, after concerted efforts to clean it up, but that before that it was endemic. And yeah, it usually targeted marginal groups - gays, natives, the homeless et. al.

[Barrister]

My impression is that the Toronto cops at least have grown a lot *less* like that: the "us versus them" meme was very strong when I was growing up, and the cops were notorious for doing stuff that would be largely unthinkable or highly scandalous now (the infamous "Cherry Beach Express" was an example - the cops were known to take 'undesireables' they had no actual reason to book down to Cherry Beach - then a very isolated and deserted place at night - and beat the living shit out of them).

Are you sure it isn't more to do with the changes in your own life during the time - as a kid you probably had reasons to be somewhat fearful of police, whereas now you do not?

[Syt]

My impression is that the Toronto cops at least have grown a lot *less* like that: the "us versus them" meme was very strong when I was growing up, and the cops were notorious for doing stuff that would be largely unthinkable or highly scandalous now (the infamous "Cherry Beach Express" was an example - the cops were known to take 'undesireables' they had no actual reason to book down to Cherry Beach - then a very isolated and deserted place at night - and beat the living shit out of them).

Last year, some colleagues went on a company trip to Toronto. They had two run ins with the police.

1: walking around the harbor they saw a police speed boat. They asked the officer how fast it went, and kept badgering him until he took them for a spin of the harbor, saying, "Anyone asks, you're from Austrian police."

2: Three of our girls were waiting in front of a bar at night for their pick up. A police car kept cruising the parking lot keeping an eye on the suspicious ladies. Eventually they pulled up close and asked their business. They explained and the talked the police officer into posing with them, putting one of them in handcuffs and having her draped suggestively around him.

[CountDeMoney]

4. A growing culture within the police world of "us vs. them" that manifests itself in a variety of profoundly negative ways, some of them not rational, and some of them very rational.

How much of this do you think is as a result of veterans of occupations(i.e. Iraq and Afghanistan) entering the police forces in larger numbers?

At our agency, we started seeing it as early as 2004 prior to the stop gap policies, and by 2007 they were applying--and we were accepting them--in droves.  And while our agency liked to see a lot of diversity, there were other agencies that wanted entire academy classes to look like they just stepped off Parris Island.

It was always a magnet, but it's only gotten worse.  But I'll defer to Berkut's experience in police recruiting.

[CountDeMoney]

Perhaps there may be some additional details that are missing from the story.  Seems clear that Vonderrit shot first, though.

Obviously, but what brought us to that point?  What required the officer to approach a group of men:  loitering?  And one runs?  So what?  He's no longer loitering.

There's a difference between an officer stopping a crime in progress, and an officer creating an event in which a crime eventually transpires.

[derspiess]

Obviously, but what brought us to that point?  What required the officer to approach a group of men:  loitering?  And one runs?  So what?  He's no longer loitering.

Hopefully we'll find out.  I get the feeling you already have your mind made up, though.

There's a difference between an officer stopping a crime in progress, and an officer creating an event in which a crime eventually transpires.

Sure.  Vonderrit still shot first.

[Barrister]

Perhaps there may be some additional details that are missing from the story.  Seems clear that Vonderrit shot first, though.

Obviously, but what brought us to that point?  What required the officer to approach a group of men:  loitering?  And one runs?  So what?  He's no longer loitering.

There's a difference between an officer stopping a crime in progress, and an officer creating an event in which a crime eventually transpires.

An individual running from approaching police is highly suspicious behaviour, and is grounds to detain a person to determine if a crime is being committed...

[CountDeMoney]

Hopefully we'll find out.  I get the feeling you already have your mind made up, though.

Not at all.  I want to know what happened, and not just be satisfied with the end result like you, which is one less black man in this world.

There's a difference between an officer stopping a crime in progress, and an officer creating an event in which a crime eventually transpires.

Sure.  Vonderrit still shot first.

One of these days, maybe they'll get you to shoot first, too.

[CountDeMoney]

An individual running from approaching police is highly suspicious behaviour,

Was he moonlighting in uniform?  Most don't.   Did he announce himself as a police officer, or did he just look the part of security guard?  Plenty of people run from security guards all the time.

and is grounds to detain a person to determine if a crime is being committed...

Good thing you stay up in God's Country, where you only have to worry about the same three drunken Indians every week.   You'd be pretty fucking busy down here, jacking up every black guy trying to catch a bus.

[11B4V]

NY Cop Knocked Teen Out for Smoking: Video
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TL-wqpy56tI

(Newser) – Marcel Hamer was walking home from school on the afternoon of June 4, smoking a cigarette, when a plainclothes police officer got out of his car and accused the now-17-year-old of smoking pot. A video of the Brooklyn incident picks up when Marcel is already on the ground, the officer apparently trying to handcuff him as the teen pleads, "Mister, it was just a cigarette, sir." As Marcel's friends protest from the sidelines—"Do you wanna get f---ed up?" the cop asks one at one point, then "Yeah, get it on film"—the officer appears to punch Marcel in the face, knocking him out, the Brooklyn Paper reports. The cop continues to order Marcel to "turn around," but the teen is apparently unconscious, and his friends start pleading with him to "wake up" while telling the cop, "You knocked him out." Eventually, another man—apparently a second undercover cop—helps handcuff Marcel as he lies unmoving on the street.

The teen's family says the officer hit him so hard he now has neurological problems, including headaches, dizziness, and memory loss. Lawyers for Marcel say that though the officer suspected him of smoking marijuana, he was only charged with disorderly conduct, New York reports; it's not clear what transpired between the officer and Marcel before the friend started recording, but Marcel's family is calling for the cop to be prosecuted. The family has also filed notice of a $5 million claim against the city, alleging excessive force, ABC 7 reports. The NYPD says the incident is under investigation. The video was released the same day as another one showing Brooklyn cops pistol-whipping an unarmed 16-year-old who had his hands in the air; he was ultimately arrested for marijuana possession, DNAinfo reports. Also yesterday, a video surfaced of another Brooklyn cop apparently taking $1,300 from a man during a stop-and-frisk, then pepper-spraying him when he demanded it back, the New York Daily News reports; that incident is also under investigation. (Meanwhile, in St. Louis, an off-duty cop shot a teen to death last night.)

[CountDeMoney]

Hamer smoked first.