The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD

[derspiess]

Even if one was to hypothetically say that in general police aren't scumbags - it is a problem if people perceive it to be their lived reality.

I guess kind of similar to the problem in which certain groups of people think that all gays are pedophiles.  It should be on the gays to prove they're not, right??

[Baron von Schtinkenbutt]

an officer working a department-approved secondary job for a private security company

Cop pay is that bad, huh?

Not usually, but cops with extra time on their hands can make some bank working security gigs.  Some departments, like the one in my hometown, actually let them work private details in-uniform, though I believe the department gets a cut of the fee in that case.

[garbon]

Even if one was to hypothetically say that in general police aren't scumbags - it is a problem if people perceive it to be their lived reality.

I guess kind of similar to the problem in which certain groups of people think that all gays are pedophiles.  It should be on the gays to prove they're not, right??

You should leave analogies to Marti, yeah?

But as you know I would say, no I don't think that is the same at all. Gays don't really have a job to serve as protection for citizenry - so you can't really draw and equivalent of the issue of how can people tasked with the job of helping one group be useful if the group they are assigned to help is afraid of them and what they might do to that group.  You might find an easy comparison if you wanted to discuss priests and pedophilia.

[derspiess]

No, I think it's a fair analogy given the terms you used.

Police : Scumbags :: Gays : Pedophiles

[garbon]

No, I think it's a fair analogy given the terms you used.

Police : Scumbags :: Gays : Pedophiles

Well I guess we have nothing further to talk about.

[derspiess]

Okay.  For the record, IMO police are generally not scumbags and gays are not generally pedophiles.  Just in case someone misinterprets my posts.

[Berkut]

Okay.  For the record, IMO police are generally not scumbags and gays are not generally pedophiles.  Just in case someone misinterprets my posts.

I think you are right.

The problem that police DO have, however is:

1. Some of them are scumbags.
2. They have a rather tough situation to deal with in regards to the statistics around who commits crimes by race - trying to balance that reality with the perception (in the best case) that blacks are unfairly targetted, and the reality that in some cases some police officers who are not "scumbags" probably do fall into the mistake of over-aggressively policing blacks out of proportion to the reality of their greater involvement statstically in crime.
3. The "thin blue line" mentality where the good cops actually protect the bad ones, which makes the good ones look just as bad as the scumbags.
4. A growing culture within the police world of "us vs. them" that manifests itself in a variety of profoundly negative ways, some of them not rational, and some of them very rational.

[derspiess]

Fair enough.

[CountDeMoney]

The officer approached a group of men.

Why?

One of the men took off running, Dotson said,

Why?

so the officer pursued.

Why?

Dotson said the suspect approached the officer in an "aggressive" manner, with a physical altercation occurring. The man then turned and fired three rounds at the officer before his gun jammed, Dotson said.

So let me get this straight...you're chasing the guy that took off running--for unknown reasons so far--and yet he "approaches" the officer--in an "aggressive" manner, no less-- and a physical altercation ensues that leads to a gunfight.

Alrighty then.

[Maximus]

4. A growing culture within the police world of "us vs. them" that manifests itself in a variety of profoundly negative ways, some of them not rational, and some of them very rational.

How much of this do you think is as a result of veterans of occupations(i.e. Iraq and Afghanistan) entering the police forces in larger numbers?

[Berkut]

4. A growing culture within the police world of "us vs. them" that manifests itself in a variety of profoundly negative ways, some of them not rational, and some of them very rational.

How much of this do you think is as a result of veterans of occupations(i.e. Iraq and Afghanistan) entering the police forces in larger numbers?

Very little, actually.

In fact, I would guess that the set of officers who are the "good guys" has a higher percentage of ex-military than the set of scumbags.

And I think the militarization culture is actually not at all driven by the actual military. More the civilians cop mentality and the rise of SWAT and "special forces" type policing.

[derspiess]

The officer approached a group of men.

Why?

One of the men took off running, Dotson said,

Why?

so the officer pursued.

Why?

Dotson said the suspect approached the officer in an "aggressive" manner, with a physical altercation occurring. The man then turned and fired three rounds at the officer before his gun jammed, Dotson said.

So let me get this straight...you're chasing the guy that took off running--for unknown reasons so far--and yet he "approaches" the officer--in an "aggressive" manner, no less-- and a physical altercation ensues that leads to a gunfight.

Alrighty then.

Perhaps there may be some additional details that are missing from the story.  Seems clear that Vonderrit shot first, though.

[Jacob]

4. A growing culture within the police world of "us vs. them" that manifests itself in a variety of profoundly negative ways, some of them not rational, and some of them very rational.

How much of this do you think is as a result of veterans of occupations(i.e. Iraq and Afghanistan) entering the police forces in larger numbers?

It's my impression that this has been part of police culture for a long time.

[Maximus]

It's my impression that this has been part of police culture for a long time.

Well I certainly never got that impression in Canada. There were a couple of cultural adjustments related to police that I encountered when I moved down here. One was the aforementioned mentality. The other was the sheer number of police vehicles seen on the streets down here.

[Malthus]

My impression is that the Toronto cops at least have grown a lot *less* like that: the "us versus them" meme was very strong when I was growing up, and the cops were notorious for doing stuff that would be largely unthinkable or highly scandalous now (the infamous "Cherry Beach Express" was an example - the cops were known to take 'undesireables' they had no actual reason to book down to Cherry Beach - then a very isolated and deserted place at night - and beat the living shit out of them).