The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD

[derspiess]

I don't buy it.

I don't buy the argument that the cops really do need to shoot all these people in order to protect themselves.

It is right up there with the "If it saves one child..." type arguments to justify, well, almost anything.

Is there a rampant problem with police officers being stabbed all the time, such that it is reasonable to shoot people to remove even the smallest threat of it happening?

Statistics show that being a police officer is a pretty safe job overall.

I'm pretty sure that varies widely depending on location.

I don't accept the claim, on face value, that policing is so dangerous that using deadly force is reasonable to reduce the chances that they are injured by some very small amount. If the chances of some mentally deranged individual successfully injuring someone with a knife is so high that it is reasonable to shoot him before he actually tries to injure anyone, then I suspect we would see a lot more of those injuries.

Now, if the guy is actually making an attempt, then fine. If the guy is threatening someone else in a credible manner, fine.

If he is just waving a knife around and babbling, then I guess that is a "threat", and meets the strict criteria of a justified use of deadly force, but pretty much completely misses the actual part where we might expect officers to use judgement and discretion, rather than simply noting "Yep, he has done something that meets the minimal definition to justify me blowing him away, so Yeah! I get to shoot him 9 times".

Or, like I said, there is a difference between "Can I shoot him?" and "Must I shoot him?"

In the video I saw, the dude with the knife was approaching the cop who shot him and was almost close enough to touch him.  I have no problem with that cop dropping him.

Now I'm okay with using this event as a reasonable discussion as to what possible non-lethal options a cop has in this type of scenario as long as we stay away from the "OMG trigger-happy cop" crap.

[garbon]

as long as we stay away from the "OMG trigger-happy cop" crap.

As long as we stay away from what certainly is reality a non negligible portion of time?

[Syt]

In the video I saw, the dude with the knife was approaching the cop who shot him and was almost close enough to touch him.  I have no problem with that cop dropping him.

I believe I saw the same video and I was wondering, "Why the hell are they driving up to like 10 feet from him instead of keeping distance?"

[derspiess]

As long as we stay away from what certainly is reality a non negligible portion of time?

Bean pie, my brotha?

[alfred russel]

I believe I saw the same video and I was wondering, "Why the hell are they driving up to like 10 feet from him instead of keeping distance?"

But you are watching with the perspective of someone who knows the dude gets shot by the cops, and looking for ways that could have been prevented.

Presumably the cops confronted the guy because crazy people brandishing knives in public places are prone to stab people. If they kept a significant distance, and instead of what happened the guy went after a bystander, and the police were not able to intervene because they were too far away (or worse, shot and missed, hitting another bystander), they would be getting criticized for being too standoffish.

[Razgovory]

In the video I saw, the dude with the knife was approaching the cop who shot him and was almost close enough to touch him.  I have no problem with that cop dropping him.

I believe I saw the same video and I was wondering, "Why the hell are they driving up to like 10 feet from him instead of keeping distance?"

Cause they were called in to stop the guy?  The man was a danger to the public, which is why the police were dispatched to begin with.  They can't realistically do that from inside the car or across the street.

[Syt]

Wasn't sure where to put it, so I put it into this by now generic "Cops shoot people" thread.

http://edition.cnn.com/2014/08/27/showbiz/cops-crew-member-shot-killed/

'Cops' crew member killed in police shooting

(CNN) -- A crew member working on a taping of "Cops" was inadvertently shot and killed by a police officer during a robbery in Omaha, Nebraska, local officials said Wednesday.

Bryce Dion, an audio technician, is believed to be the first member of the "Cops" production staff killed in the 25-year history of the television show.

The production company behind "Cops," Langley Productions, said in a statement that it was "deeply saddened and shocked by this tragedy and our main concern is helping his family in any way we can."

Dion, 38, had been in Omaha all summer, helping with the production of future "Cops" episodes. The production company described him as a "long term member of the 'Cops' team and a very talented and dedicated person." His resume lists credits on "Cops" dating back to 2009.

Todd Schmaderer, the Omaha police chief, confirmed at a Wednesday afternoon news conference that a bullet fired by an officer struck Dion during a shootout with the robbery suspect, Cortez Washington, who was also killed.

Schmaderer described Dion as a friend to the officers that he'd been embedded with.

"This is as if we lost one of our own," Schmaderer said. "That is the grieving process we're going through right now."

Dion and a cameraman were traveling with police officers who responded to a robbery inside a Wendy's restaurant on Tuesday night. Schmaderer said the suspect, Washington, fired two shots at the responding officers, who responded with a barrage of gunfire.

It was later discovered that Washington had a pellet gun that fired plastic bullets.

As Washington tried to exit the Wendy's, he passed through a vestibule where Dion was positioned. The "Cops" cameraman was crouched down in another part of the restaurant.

After being struck by a single gunshot, Dion "collapsed just inside the east doorway," according to the police chief.

Washington collapsed outside.

Now, as an investigation ensues, the cameraman's footage has become evidence.

"Based on our viewing of the footage, the officers had no choice other than to respond (the way) they did," Schmaderer said, anticipating questions about why so many shots were fired.

When asked at the press conference if the officers could have been "showing off for the cameras," Schmaderer called that "absolutely ridiculous."

"This was a very harrowing situation," he said.

Asked whether "Cops" would stop production in Omaha, the police chief said, "We haven't gotten that far." The investigation is ongoing, he said, and is relying in part on the "Cops" team's footage.

"Mr. Dion played the ultimate price for his service -- to provide the footage of the real-life dangers that law enforcement officers face on a daily basis to television viewers throughout the world," Schmaderer said.

The crew was reportedly scheduled to wrap up production in the coming days.

"I've seen six or seven of the shows that can be aired, and it just shows amazing professionalism," Schmaderer said.

"Cops," often called one of the original reality shows, was televised by the Fox network for 24 years. Last year it shifted over to the cable channel Spike.

[grumbler]

In the video I saw, the dude with the knife was approaching the cop who shot him and was almost close enough to touch him.  I have no problem with that cop dropping him.

This would be a valid argument if the policeman was immobilized for some reason (such as defending someone else who couldn't move), but, in this case, the mere "he got close" argument fails because the cop LET him get close.  Had the cops backed up as the knife-wielder advanced (which it looks to me like they could do without a problem), then the "he got close' trigger isn't pulled and neither are the pistol triggers.

I have big problems with cops dropping citizens as a matter of choice.

Now I'm okay with using this event as a reasonable discussion as to what possible non-lethal options a cop has in this type of scenario as long as we stay away from the "OMG trigger-happy cop" crap.

I am sure we are all grateful for your permission. 

[derspiess]

How far is the cop supposed to backtrack, g?

[sbr]

STAND MAH GROUND

[grumbler]

How far is the cop supposed to backtrack, g?

Until he no longer can.  Better to walk backwards into the next county than needlessly end a life.  How many steps (if any) do you believe a human life is worth?

[Ed Anger]

3. Like a Tootsie Roll pop.

[derspiess]

How far is the cop supposed to backtrack, g?

Until he no longer can.  Better to walk backwards into the next county than needlessly end a life.  How many steps (if any) do you believe a human life is worth?

I'll defer to the knife-wielder on that.  He apparently didn't place much value on it himself.

[grumbler]

How far is the cop supposed to backtrack, g?

Until he no longer can.  Better to walk backwards into the next county than needlessly end a life.  How many steps (if any) do you believe a human life is worth?

I'll defer to the knife-wielder on that.  He apparently didn't place much value on it himself.

I used the Google Gibberish-English translation feature, and this still came out gibberish.  Care to re-phrase this in just plain English?  What are you deferring (and why?); how many steps is "not much?"

[Berkut]

How far is the cop supposed to backtrack, g?

Until he no longer can.  Better to walk backwards into the next county than needlessly end a life.  How many steps (if any) do you believe a human life is worth?

I'll defer to the knife-wielder on that.  He apparently didn't place much value on it himself.

Exactly the kind of thinking that results in cops making decisions based on "Can I shoot this person" rather than "Must I shoot this person".

I suspect spicey would be the kind of cop itching to get a "kill".