The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD

[derspiess]

That's what I thought, it's kinda fun as in Italy he's basically ignored outside of strictly naval circles, maybe he's only civically celebrated in Genoa itself.

It is odd, and not just Columbus. Cabot, Vespucci, Verrazzano, Pigafetta and Cadamosto are all fairly prominent explorers, but I've never seen a monument for any of them.
Come to think of it, not even Marco Polo. It was hard to find his family home in Venice, there's barely any mention of it.

Well, Verrazzano has a big-ass important bridge named after him.  And Vespucci has a couple continents named after him.

It is a pity though that we don't have more stuff named after Pigafetta.

[The Larch]

That's what I thought, it's kinda fun as in Italy he's basically ignored outside of strictly naval circles, maybe he's only civically celebrated in Genoa itself.

It is odd, and not just Columbus. Cabot, Vespucci, Verrazzano, Pigafetta and Cadamosto are all fairly prominent explorers, but I've never seen a monument for any of them.
Come to think of it, not even Marco Polo. It was hard to find his family home in Venice, there's barely any mention of it.

It might have to do with all those explorers being in the service of other European powers, on whose behalf they performed their explorations (Columbus and Pigafetta for Spain, Verrazzano for France, Cabot for England, Vespucci for Spain and Portugal, Cadamosto for Portugal), in Italy this might be seen as bitter-sweet, in the sense of "look at all our talented navigators, all in the service of foreign powers". If they had been exploring for Genoa or Venice the tune might have been different. In any case I guess they're celebrated locally at least, and for sure they're celebrated in the countries they served and places they explored.

[Maladict]

It might have to do with all those explorers being in the service of other European powers, on whose behalf they performed their explorations (Columbus and Pigafetta for Spain, Verrazzano for France, Cabot for England, Vespucci for Spain and Portugal, Cadamosto for Portugal), in Italy this might be seen as bitter-sweet, in the sense of "look at all our talented navigators, all in the service of foreign powers". If they had been exploring for Genoa or Venice the tune might have been different. In any case I guess they're celebrated locally at least, and for sure they're celebrated in the countries they served and places they explored.

That's true.

[garbon]

AFAIK the figure of Columbus in the USA is mostly propped up by the Italian community since the late XIXth, early XXth century, right?

Probably. They traditionally are the ones carrying a torch for Columbus around here.

That's what I thought, it's kinda fun as in Italy he's basically ignored outside of strictly naval circles, maybe he's only civically celebrated in Genoa itself.

It was a way for Italians to show how American they were so yeah I can see why that would not be as important for Italians in Italy.

Apparently the Richmond statue was put up in 1927 - the first in the South.

I'd also agree Columbus is a bit different from those that Tamas noted. At least in my childhood, Columbus was taught to us to be this awesome guy that was doubted by everyone. Only in high school did they start to talk at all about a more rounded picture of him and his brothers.

[The Larch]

Checking some stuff it seems that the Italian Navy had a whole destroyer class named after explorers during WWII, which included ships named after Cadamosto, Verrazzano and Pigafetta, amongst other lesser known explorers:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Navigatori-class_destroyer

Checking the bios of some of the lesser known ones (mostly involved in early exploration of Africa for Spain and Portugal), some of them are a bit out of the traditional mould. A Genoese one (Luca Tarigo) explored the Caspian Sea in the XIVth century sailing from Crimea (where Genoese trading outposts existed) and up the Don and Volga rivers. Two other Genoese ones (the Vivaldi brothers, Ugolino and Vandino) undertook in the XIIIth century the first expedition from the Mediterranean (they served the Republic of Genoa) out to the Atlantic and down the African Coast since the Roman Empire. Two other Venetian brothers (the Zenos, Nicolò and Antonio) were active in the North and Arctic seas in the late XIVth century and are the source of the Zeno Map, an alleged forgery that shows a supposed voyage of exploration to Iceland, Greenland and Nova Scotia.

[The Brain]

Some of them survive in folk medicine. For instance, rubbing Pigafetta on a rash has a soothing effect.

[The Larch]

Pigafetta is a bit overlooked as he wasn't an explorer per se. He joined the Magellan expedition as a chronicler, but he did perform an amazing job at that role and thanks to him we have a very detailed account of that expedition

[grumbler]

With Columbus everything he did besides navigating was extremely shady (I mean, he was even imprisoned in Spain after his 3rd expedition because of his mismanagement of Hispaniola and the atrocities he ordered as its governor), but his achievements as a navigator are undeniable.

Fun fact:  Columbus was a shit navigator and only survived the consequences of his stupidity because the Americas prevented him from sailing beyond the point of no return.

The myth about everyone but him believing the world was flat is laughable, but still widely believed.  Columbus's genius was in believing that the world was much smaller than it was known, beyond a doubt, to be.  That's why no one would back him, until he got to Spain, where there was a temporary budget surplus and the crown decided that they could use some of it to send a bunch of fools and the sweepings of their jails off to a convenient death in the western ocean.

The man was lucky, but otherwise had no significant redeeming qualities.

[Maladict]

Checking some stuff it seems that the Italian Navy had a whole destroyer class named after explorers during WWII, which included ships named after Cadamosto, Verrazzano and Pigafetta, amongst other lesser known explorers:

And the wonderfully named Antoniotto Usodimare.

[DGuller]

With Columbus everything he did besides navigating was extremely shady (I mean, he was even imprisoned in Spain after his 3rd expedition because of his mismanagement of Hispaniola and the atrocities he ordered as its governor), but his achievements as a navigator are undeniable.

Fun fact:  Columbus was a shit navigator and only survived the consequences of his stupidity because the Americas prevented him from sailing beyond the point of no return.

The myth about everyone but him believing the world was flat is laughable, but still widely believed.  Columbus's genius was in believing that the world was much smaller than it was known, beyond a doubt, to be.  That's why no one would back him, until he got to Spain, where there was a temporary budget surplus and the crown decided that they could use some of it to send a bunch of fools and the sweepings of their jails off to a convenient death in the western ocean.

The man was lucky, but otherwise had no significant redeeming qualities.

This is a perfect example of how sometimes people at the very top are not the smartest ones, but the most aggressive risk takers whose luck bailed out their stupidity.

[HVC]

Yeah he thought the world was like 1/2 to 2/3 smaller then it was. Portugal (so it is said anyway) said no because his calculations sucked (and they might have already known brazil was there, so why pay for an expedition to somewhere you know is there).

On the other side, he made it back home, so he had to at least be a decent navigator lol

[merithyn]

No one is an explorer in his own land.

They do tend to implore back home.

Okay, this made me laugh out loud.

[Maladict]

Yeah he thought the world was like 1/2 to 2/3 smaller then it was. Portugal (so it is said anyway) said no because his calculations sucked (and they might have already known brazil was there, so why pay for an expedition to somewhere you know is there).

On the other side, he made it back home, so he had to at least be a decent navigator lol

He was a pretty good dead reckoning navigator, according to Morison one of the best.

All the court advisors (including the Spanish) who said it could not be done, based on the more or less correct numbers, were also wrong.

[The Brain]

It's a good thing he didn't make it to his planned destination. Imagine if smallpox had reached China.

[merithyn]

It's a good thing he didn't make it to his planned destination. Imagine if smallpox had reached China.

Where do you think smallpox came from.

https://www.cdc.gov/smallpox/history/history.html