The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD

[Barrister]

Heh. Though sometimes I get a little uncomfortable for how we make MLK the one man civil rights prophet when he was just one cog in a very large machine that comprised thousands of people. I think it creates the false narrative that we need to wait around for some great leader when in reality it was the efforts of thousands over many decades that created the leader and the organization not the other way around, even if there is nothing specifically objectionable about MLK himself.

I was just thinking today how the current BLM movement doesn't center around any one person like MLK. I personally like that because I hate cults of personality, but I think also objectively that's a positive. It makes the movement more resilient.

The flip side though is that without leadership, these kind of mass movements lack any kind of strategic thought and risk getting caught up in extremist ideology(like Defund the Police).

[Sheilbh]

I think it's a strength and weakness.

From a UK perspective I feel like we could do with more statues of scientists and women. We are very bad at honouring those groups compared to politicians, businessmen, writers etc.

[Maximus]

The flip side though is that without leadership, these kind of mass movements lack any kind of strategic thought and risk getting caught up in extremist ideology(like Defund the Police).

That's not really an ideology though. It's more like a loose collection of ideas, some of which are fairly extreme while others are very pragmatic. I think that such a structure is pretty much ideal for a protest movement.

I think only allowing strategic ideas severely limits the kinds of ideas we encounter, and not in a good way.

[Valmy]

I think it's a strength and weakness.

From a UK perspective I feel like we could do with more statues of scientists and women. We are very bad at honouring those groups compared to politicians, businessmen, writers etc.

Really? Huh. I guess I just figured your country was covered with Victoria, Elizabeth I, and Margaret Thatcher stuff.

[Sheilbh]

Really? Huh. I guess I just figured your country was covered with Victoria, Elizabeth I, and Margaret Thatcher stuff.

There's loads of Victoria. I can't think of any of Elizabeth but I'm sure there'll be a few (and this does just reflect that statuemania is a very 19th/20th century thing with very 19th/20th century cultural values.

I think there's one of Maggie in Parliament and maybe one in her hometown

[Barrister]

I think it's a strength and weakness.

From a UK perspective I feel like we could do with more statues of scientists and women. We are very bad at honouring those groups compared to politicians, businessmen, writers etc.

Just as a general trend in art though we've really gotten away from portraiture and realistic statues.


I mentioned the Edmonton neighborhood of Oliver yesterday.  Last night on Twitter I came across a list of the "top 20 Most Racist and Problematic Place Names in Edmonton".  Oliver was mentioned.  But who else was mentioned?

Winston Churchill (I trust you know why)

John Cabot (for introducing disease to first nations)

Phillip Primose, founding member of the NWMP (precursor to the RCMP, because the force was "created specifically to control, police and dispossess Indigenous people in order for white people to settle western Canada. ")

Matthew Blackwood (for the crime of being police chief when the police were investigating and charging homosexuals)

WD Ferris (for the offence of being a member of the Imperial Order of Daughters of the Empire - not a founder, just being a member)

Robert Rundle (for being an early missionary to First Nations, since "Christian missionaries laid the foundation for Canada's residential school system"

Anything named after a King or Queen (since the British Empire committed atrocities)

Anything named after the Famous Five (since despite being famed advocates for the rights of women, they were also in favour of eugenics)

https://www.theprogressreport.ca/edmonton_s_top_20_most_racist_and_problematic_place_names

[Barrister]

The flip side though is that without leadership, these kind of mass movements lack any kind of strategic thought and risk getting caught up in extremist ideology(like Defund the Police).

That's not really an ideology though. It's more like a loose collection of ideas, some of which are fairly extreme while others are very pragmatic. I think that such a structure is pretty much ideal for a protest movement.

I think only allowing strategic ideas severely limits the kinds of ideas we encounter, and not in a good way.

One of the big slogans amongst conservatives was that "Ideas have consequences" (or at least it used to be big).

It's true, but only so far s you start to have means to put those ideas into action.  Conservatives and libertarians can have all the think-tanks in the world coming up with all kinds of brilliant policy ideas, but it means nothing if it can't be brought into policy.

[Sheilbh]

Just as a general trend in art though we've really gotten away from portraiture and realistic statues.

Yes. As indicated by the Ronaldo in Madeira, Lucille Ball and this amazing statue of Nathan Bedford Forrest in Nashville:


Edit: Incidentally big fan of the proposal to rename one of those military bases after Daniel Inouye.

[Valmy]

Edit: Incidentally big fan of the proposal to rename one of those military bases after Daniel Inouye.

A captain?!

I don't think the army brass would stand for it.

[Maximus]

Conservatives and libertarians can have all the think-tanks in the world coming up with all kinds of brilliant policy ideas, but it means nothing if it can't be brought into policy.

True, but you can't put ideas into policy that haven't been formulated either.

I don't think we have a shortage of people and organizations willing to put forward policy based on accepted ideas.

[Razgovory]

Conservatives and libertarians can have all the think-tanks in the world coming up with all kinds of brilliant policy ideas, but it means nothing if it can't be brought into policy.

True, but you can't put ideas into policy that haven't been formulated either.

I don't think we have a shortage of people and organizations willing to put forward policy based on accepted ideas.

That's not really the problem.  I'll use a recent right-wing example: Abolish the Affordable Care Act.  While almost all conservatives agreed on getting rid of the Act, but beyond that they didn't agree on anything.  Due to the scattershot approach of the tea party, politicians had made all sorts of conflicting promises and when they had the chance to remove the act they couldn't get the votes.  Message Discipline is important.

[Duque de Bragança]

There is still a Léopold II avenue in Paris. OTOH, there is a rue Saint-Just ending in a dead-end (LULZ) parallel to a cemetery. Coincidence? 
No rue Robespierre before Valmy asks.

PS: some communal "association" called Black African Defense League (sic) called for removing Colbert statues. He is responsible for the Black Code, regulating the status of slaves, and is also the spiritual father of dirigisme , popular among French conservatives.

Are Napoleon monuments getting any heat or would that be a sacred cow too far?

Not the monuments yet, but Napoleon reinstated slavery for his Joséphine and planters so I would not be surprised if the issue flares up later.

PS: just checked again, and saw the above mentioned communal organisation threatened on Twitter ( ) to desecrate statues of Napoléon and De Gaulle as well.
France being " totalitarian, terrorist, a slave state and colonialist" according to them.

[Valmy]

Didn't DeGaulle risk his life to give Algeria independence and set free most of France's colonies? I guess there is just no pleasing some people.

[The Brain]

They're not coming for my Barbie dolls, are they?

[Razgovory]

They're not coming for my Barbie dolls, are they?

Only if they are Klaus Barbie dolls.