The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD

[Kaeso]

OK as I am mostly working on police reform but in post-conflict settings, I feel like sharing my 2 cents on the current events even if my experience with US colleagues is limited, couple of people I met while deployed and one Swiss who tried his luck in California. I keep in mind we have not the same training and not the same expectation from the public.

- End qualified inmunity for cops.

The next logical step will be for officers/deputies/agents to get some insurance coverage. That actually could be a good move as insurance won't cover bad practice. Downside each officers will cost more to the city/county.

- Require policemen to come from and/or live in the communities in which they're going to work.

Nice idea but can you really force someone to live in a certain town without encroaching their basic rights. We used to be forced to live in the city we were working. Some officers brought the case in front the court and it was settled you could not impose some to reside somewhere without a proper compensation. When I was still a patrolman, the idea of sending my two daughters to the local school : 

Having local cops is the best so you should ensure they get incentives to remain in the municipal territory (loan to buy a property for instance). About recruiting local population, you can either accept candidates that don't comply with all prerequisites or try to lure people who might not have think law enforcement was a viable path. One is easier than the other.

- Forbid police unions from making political donations, so they don't influence sheriffs, judges or district attorneys (seriously, stop making justice positions elective, while you're at it).

Definitely, Unions should remain apolitical. Also the whole DA election is an open door for incestuous relationship between the sitting DA and the Police. It is really a "you scratch my back and I'll scratch yours" as far as I see from afar. If a DA wants to get reelected, he needs money (donations) and results (arrests/convictions)... Guess who can make that happen.

- Remove competences from police departments that have been dumped on them and for which policemen are not qualified (mental health calls, drug addiction calls, etc.), and move the corresponding budget to the social services departments that can handle them much better, so-called "Defund the police" measures.

Either you have a very expensive "24/7" social patrol or at least an "on call" list of professionals who respond as soon as possible. The second option, when time is critical, may force a police response. I still think a better training for police officers would be less expensive and more useful for the society at large.

- When a given police department is too utterly out of control and unreformable that it can't be worked with, disband it and create a new one from scratch. This is "Defund the police" on steroids.

The Northern Ireland example could offer a good path. But the issue of policing is still linked with politics... You can change a name and a badge, fire the worst officers, you will still need to build trust with the local communities. It is a long path that require both parties to cooperate.

- Ban overly confrontational police training courses (all that Warrior policing bullshit).

Can't argue with that.

- End transfer programs of military surplus equipment to police forces.

As I am a big fan of the gendarmerie model, I would rather have police officer who follow military discipline than having them to get armored vehicles (though you will need them for support elements).

- Banish the "broken windows" school of policing to the dustbin of history.

Are you referring to the "zero tolerance" policy ? Because the "Broken windows" have some merits, once you stop enforcing the law in certain sectors, the living condition of the majority drops. It doesn't mean you should arrest every single jaywalkers and imprisons graffiti artists, merely that you should take notice of a trend and seek to engage the local communities to address it.

Another common sense things would be ending the war on drugs, for profit prisons, and the like, and getting into even murkier territory dealing with the underlying cultural issues that drive all this (guns, state of fear, racism...).

I am still baffled by the « for profit » prisons and all the abuses that are connected to them. "Your police is a mirror of your society" so reforming those police agencies without touching the deeper issues won't do much. Also, while democratic control over police agencies is a good thing, it is best if the relationship is not too close, especially with the executive branch.

[DGuller]

I agree about the broken windows policing.  I think it's bad practice to not enforce laws that do exist, and it does passively victimize innocent civilians by forcing them to cope with crime that police can't be bothered with.  I suspect that the issue with broken windows policing in practice was more about the aggression that was used to accomplish that, or it being used selectively as a pretext for widespread minority harassment.

[Sheilbh]

Interesting. Not thought of the RUC - PSNI comparison.

For what it's worth I think that has had some success in improviing Catholic attitudes to the Police in Northern Ireland which, given the history, is a hell of an achievement. Having said that though, it's been 20 years of affirmative action 50/50 hiring and I believe Catholic members of the police force have increased from under 10% to about a third. It was part of a lot of other measures to increase confidence in all communities in the police, but I suspect there's still some way to go.

Interestingly while there's been an increase in confidence in the PSNI (which I think has always been around 80% for Protestants), I understand that one of the recent challenges is actually how they deal with the legacy crimes from the Troubles.

And this poster from the 80s is weirdly of the moment:

[crazy canuck]

Canada historically has had a very small number of people of African heritage.  Not that we have none, and they weren't discriminated against.

If you want to talk about where Canada has failed in terms of our minorities you need to look at how we treated French-speaking Canadians (though that's much more in the past than some on Languish would claim, it was very real), and of course how we treated our First Nations citizens (who weren't even considered citizens until around 50 years ago).  Heck, although I disagreed with it, we had a series of protests in Canada by groups aligned with First Nations just before the coronavirus in 2020.

In the UK, there's been different civil righst movements. The one that looks most like the US is the Northern Irish civil rights movement led by Bernadette Devlin, Seamus Mallon and John Hume who were directly inspired by MLK and Gandhi - right down to the hunger strikes. But their campaigns were around things like representation (the unionists gerrmandered seats to avoid Catholic majority seats), employment rights, housing equality and policing (the RUC was overwhelmingling Protestant and their reserve force was largely made up of unionist paramilitaries).

But that's the only bit I can think of that's directly similar in that there is a sort of formal system of discrimination. As I mentioned, in the UK our formal racism was exported through Empire so most BAME communities are largely from the post-war era. But there's been loads of activism that is very like the civil rights movement - the Bristol bus boycott (against a colour bar in hiring), the Grunwick strike ("strikers in saris"), plus fighting the far-right (the Anti-Nazi League etc). I think it's a lot more diffuse - but it's there.

BB glossed over the civil rights movement in Canada.  Viola Desmond, our Rosa Parks equivalent, is now on our 10 dollar bill. 

[Josquius]

When I was still a patrolman, the idea of sending my two daughters to the local school : 

This is kind of the point.

The Northern Ireland example could offer a good path. But the issue of policing is still linked with politics... You can change a name and a badge, fire the worst officers, you will still need to build trust with the local communities. It is a long path that require both parties to cooperate.

Yeah, I was thinking the other day whether lessons could be learned from Northern Ireland. Great counter point to those who say the country will collapse into anarchy if anything is tried. Really think better organisation is required however to fix the current system of every town having their own completely isolated from all others police force.

[Razgovory]

The President has theories about the elderly man shoved in Buffalo:

Buffalo protester shoved by Police could be an ANTIFA provocateur. 75 year old Martin Gugino was pushed away after appearing to scan police communications in order to black out the equipment. @OANN I watched, he fell harder than was pushed. Was aiming scanner. Could be a set up?

OANN has an actual Nazi on the payroll, so you know, they are scum.

[merithyn]

I'm a little upset that we're I'm being schooled on American Civil Rights history by a Brit and two Canadians.

I mean, I knew all of that stuff, but if you ask me anything about Canadian or UK civil rights and it's a total blank.

FTFY.  One thing that you should keep in mind is that you can only speak for yourself.

Dear lord, the egoes involved on a silly post.

You're right. My apologies. How dare I make a silly post that might say that you Languish people aren't brilliant and knowledgable. Mea culpa.

[Syt]

Atun-Shei has a new video discussing why Confederate monuments should go, tackling some of the most common arguments against it.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=otTsbqK4U7o

Misinformation abounds about the removal of Confederate monuments in across the Southern United States. In this video, I discuss the common misconceptions about this controversial issue. Join me in making treason odious.

[Duque de Bragança]

And this poster from the 80s is weirdly of the moment:

That's a poster recycled from May '68 in France.



With a slogan to match: CRS = SS
CRS being the anti-riot police.

[Kaeso]

When I was still a patrolman, the idea of sending my two daughters to the local school : 

This is kind of the point.

Sure, but when the school is 80% non native speakers you think twice before to send them there.  Not so much about the security aspect but because you don't want them to get an additional challenge to overcome when it comes to their future education. Suprisingly teachers also try their best to avoid certain schools when it comes to place their own kids.

[Grey Fox]

I'm a little upset that we're I'm being schooled on American Civil Rights history by a Brit and two Canadians.

I mean, I knew all of that stuff, but if you ask me anything about Canadian or UK civil rights and it's a total blank.

FTFY.  One thing that you should keep in mind is that you can only speak for yourself.

Dear lord, the egoes involved on a silly post.

You're right. My apologies. How dare I make a silly post that might say that you Languish people aren't brilliant and knowledgable. Mea culpa.

You told them they have bad ovaries.

[Sheilbh]

The President has theories about the elderly man shoved in Buffalo:

Buffalo protester shoved by Police could be an ANTIFA provocateur. 75 year old Martin Gugino was pushed away after appearing to scan police communications in order to black out the equipment. @OANN I watched, he fell harder than was pushed. Was aiming scanner. Could be a set up?

The Republicans continue to offer up profiles in courage:

Rubio: "I didn't see it. you're telling me about it. I don't read Twitter. I only write on it."

Cornyn: "You know, a lot of this stuff just goes over my head."

[DGuller]

"I don't know nothing about nothing."

[Valmy]

Atun-Shei has a new video discussing why Confederate monuments should go, tackling some of the most common arguments against it.

Yeah I liked that video but it also showed just what a ridiculously huge task it is because there are thousands of them. I get the feeling in the UK there are a couple dozen such statues to be removed and they were not really put up because of slavery or to celebrate slavery directly, but rather because the slavers became prominent leaders and philanthropists with their slave money. The Confederate monuments were often put up in direct support and celebration of racism and white supremacy and are thus much worse.

I liked his video rating the statues in New Orleans from Innocent to Hitler: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8YeaoU7T46k

[Syt]

Vienna did a survey a few years ago of "problematic" street names. Thea identified 150+, with 38 rated very problematic. For the most parts it's names of public persons who were known antisemites, like former mayor Karl Lueger, but also many with affiliations to NSDAP, SA, and/or SS. E.g. Ferry Dusika, a well known cyclist who took aver an aryanized shop and was an enthusiastic nazi. But also Ferdinand Porsche, who held an SS rank and requested forced laborers for his production lines. In many cases an additional plaque is added to the street signs pointing out the history of the person. Only in few cases streets or squares are actually renamed.