The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD

[Valmy]

I think an argument can be made that there are people who know what reforms need to be made, but there is just no political will to take bats to the knees from police unions.  That may change now.

I sure hope so.

[merithyn]

I think an argument can be made that there are people who know what reforms need to be made, but there is just no political will to take bats to the knees from police unions.  That may change now.

From your lips to gods' ears.

[Sheilbh]

*shrug* You jest, but I don't see any obvious reason why we should demand less from other sectors than we do from nuclear. Especially a sector that kills as many citizens every year as law enforcement.

In nuclear I assume their are trade offs between cost and risk, and other upsides and downsides.  The choice of what trade offs to accept and which to reject is not a scientific question, it is a political question, and in every country it has been made by the political process.

Sure - but the US has made a series of choices to get here:
https://edition.cnn.com/2020/06/08/us/us-police-floyd-protests-country-comparisons-intl/index.html

And yes the US is generally a more lethal country - but on this stuff, it is an extreme outlier.

[The Brain]

*shrug* You jest, but I don't see any obvious reason why we should demand less from other sectors than we do from nuclear. Especially a sector that kills as many citizens every year as law enforcement.

In nuclear I assume their are trade offs between cost and risk, and other upsides and downsides.  The choice of what trade offs to accept and which to reject is not a scientific question, it is a political question, and in every country it has been made by the political process.

Duh. And then the whole question is should politicians make decent law enforcement a reality, just like protesters demand. I don't see any need for the protesters to present technical solutions.

[Admiral Yi]

Sure - but the US has made a series of choices to get here:
https://edition.cnn.com/2020/06/08/us/us-police-floyd-protests-country-comparisons-intl/index.html

And yes the US is generally a more lethal country - but on this stuff, it is an extreme outlier.

Not sure what your point is and how it fits into Brain and I's amusing little tete a tete.

[Sheilbh]

Not sure what your point is and how it fits into Brain and I's amusing little tete a tete.

Backing up Brain, which he never needs, there's trade-offs and risks and choices, but it's not beyond the ken of man. And if politicians can't make them, then that's on them not protesters for having insufficiently detailed police papers.

It's all a bit "'No Way To Prevent This,' Says Only Nation Where This Regularly Happens".

As I say obviously issues in other countries but the US is at an extreme.

[Admiral Yi]

Duh. And then the whole question is should politicians make decent law enforcement a reality, just like protesters demand. I don't see any need for the protesters to present technical solutions.

So the police themselves are off the hook now?

[DGuller]

I think an argument can be made that there are people who know what reforms need to be made, but there is just no political will to take bats to the knees from police unions.  That may change now.

Yes, decent law enforcement isn't even rocket science.

I think it's a little more complicated than you give it credit for, especially when you start off with hardened cultures.  I don't think it's overly dramatic to say that police unions act like mafia in many cities.  That means that passing reforms to begin with is difficult, and even after you pass them, making the cops fear the enforcement more than they fear breaking the code is a challenge.  It's not an impossible challenge, societies with omerta have been cracked before, but it requires a lot of effort and political will.

[The Brain]

Duh. And then the whole question is should politicians make decent law enforcement a reality, just like protesters demand. I don't see any need for the protesters to present technical solutions.

So the police themselves are off the hook now?

I'm sorry, I don't follow at all. What are you talking about?

[Admiral Yi]

Backing up Brain, which he never needs, there's trade-offs and risks and choices, but it's not beyond the ken of man. And if politicians can't make them, then that's on them not protesters for having insufficiently detailed police papers.

It's all a bit "'No Way To Prevent This,' Says Only Nation Where This Regularly Happens".

As I say obviously issues in other countries but the US is at an extreme.

I don't see how Uck's straw man about the lack of white papers from BLM factors in.  I said we need buy in on proposals from the protestors.  If you want to argue that, argue that.

You seem to be dancing around the thesis that reducing black deaths from cops to zero is a no brainer.  Is that your thesis?

[The Brain]

I think an argument can be made that there are people who know what reforms need to be made, but there is just no political will to take bats to the knees from police unions.  That may change now.

Yes, decent law enforcement isn't even rocket science.

I think it's a little more complicated than you give it credit for, especially when you start off with hardened cultures.  I don't think it's overly dramatic to say that police unions act like mafia in many cities.  That means that passing reforms to begin with is difficult, and even after you pass them, making the cops fear the enforcement more than they fear breaking the code is a challenge.  It's not an impossible challenge, societies with omerta have been cracked before, but it requires a lot of effort and political will.

What you describe doesn't sound like a scientific problem, but a problem of politics/willpower.

[Admiral Yi]

I'm sorry, I don't follow at all. What are you talking about?

Earlier you said it was the job of the police themselves to produce results or face the axe.  Now, after I introduced the regulatory role of the state in the nuclear industry, you say it's law makers who's job it is to produce results or face the axe.  Is it one, the other, both?

[DGuller]

What you describe doesn't sound like a scientific problem, but a problem of politics/willpower.

It is largely that, but there is some science to figuring out how to accomplish breaking the code within the political realities.  There is some science to rooting out corruption, it's not just a matter of finding a resolute enough man at the top who pounds their fist on the table and makes it so.

[The Brain]

I'm sorry, I don't follow at all. What are you talking about?

Earlier you said it was the job of the police themselves to produce results or face the axe.  Now, after I introduced the regulatory role of the state in the nuclear industry, you say it's law makers who's job it is to produce results or face the axe.  Is it one, the other, both?

Isn't it always both when it comes to these things? For the chain to actually do the job every link in the chain has to be held accountable.

[Admiral Yi]

Isn't it always both when it comes to these things? For the chain to actually do the job every link in the chain has to be held accountable.

Sure.  And I'm saying Teh People have a role to play too.  That their are no experts that can give us magical solutions.  We, collectively, are the only experts there are.