The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD

[Barrister]

If the price to pay to deescalate that moment is a couple of police cars burned down, and a few broken windows, I consider it a much, much lower price than the deployment of battalions of cop all geared up in military gear, which inevitably lead to further escalation, as the last - oh, 50, 60 years? - have conclusively shown. To me, the much bigger cost is to the body politic - but I am sure you can make a narrow economic reading re: the monetary cost of police brutality and repression.

I don't think burning a police car deescalates anything.  Instead it's an accelerant.  Oh look what we got away with - what else can we do!  That's not any one person's thought pattern, but that is the mob mentality.

[Admiral Yi]

Our whole system of policing is predicated on the stark distinction of what any private citizen would do in response to an insult or injury, and how our society, and therefore, our police, should answer. I would very much like to punch in the face someone who insulted me, but I wouldn't expect a policeman to punch that person for me. And I wouldn't want a policeman to be authorized to punch in the face a citizen who insults him. Restraint is a necessary part of granting the privilege to some individuals the right to discharge a deadly weapon on a fellow citizen.

Furthermore, this is not a sort of either/or proposition, that should we let a police car vandalized in tense circumstances we are suddenly giving the ok for all police cars -- and indeed, all cars - to be vandalized for all times. This is the recognition that this is a tense moment.

If the price to pay to deescalate that moment is a couple of police cars burned down, and a few broken windows, I consider it a much, much lower price than the deployment of battalions of cop all geared up in military gear, which inevitably lead to further escalation, as the last - oh, 50, 60 years? - have conclusively shown. To me, the much bigger cost is to the body politic - but I am sure you can make a narrow economic reading re: the monetary cost of police brutality and repression.

I don't think an insult fits in the same categories as threats to property and life.  And for what it's worth, I think cops generally show remarkable restraint when they are being insulted.  But burning a cop car is not calliing someone a bad name.

I do agree that the fact the instigating incident was killing by cop means the response should be a lighter touch than usual.  Just not to the extent of standing by with arms crossed while property is destroyed.

I wish I could see the evidence for your assertion that letting riots burn themselves out leads to less rioting in the near term.  I just don't see the proof for that.

[Oexmelin]

I don't think burning a police car deescalates anything.  Instead it's an accelerant.  Oh look what we got away with - what else can we do! 

I thought it was clear that the policy of deescalation would be my preferred police response to an angry crowd. The crowd is not trying to deescalate the situation by burning a car - it's an angry response to an intolerable situation. The escalation is responding to a burning car by shooting up tear gas and rubber bullet.

There are ways to de-escalate even such super tense situations - contacting local leaders, asking for political presence, calling for mediation. Or, quite frankly, letting the anger subside. After all, isn't it *exactly what police forces do* whenever sports fan riot after a victory/defeat?

Having been in many demonstrations with a purpose, I absolutely do not share your appreciation of "mob mentality". People don't think about what they can get away with. They want to shout and express their anger.

[Syt]

Donald Trump finds soothing words to heal the wound and calm things down.

Donald J. Trump
@realDonaldTrump
·
1h
I can't stand back & watch this happen to a great American City, Minneapolis. A total lack of leadership. Either the very weak Radical Left Mayor, Jacob Frey, get his act together and bring the City under control, or I will send in the National Guard & get the job done right.....

....These THUGS are dishonoring the memory of George Floyd, and I won't let that happen. Just spoke to Governor Tim Walz and told him that the Military is with him all the way. Any difficulty and we will assume control but, when the looting starts, the shooting starts. Thank you!

[Syt]

White dude casually smashing windows of a car shop in Minneapolis, then walking away:

https://twitter.com/keithboykin/status/1266132570980454400

There's some reports that the violence on the first day was instigated by white folk who supposedly looked "out of place" in the otherwise diverse protest, but apparently there's no video footage so it's a rumor at best.

[Oexmelin]

I don't think an insult fits in the same categories as threats to property and life.

I was illustrating the principle. Switch my example for: "if someone killed my child" - I wouldn't expect the police to act as I would like to act.

Note, also, that here, property damage is what the crowd engaged in. Threats to life is what the police did, and what they offered.

I wish I could see the evidence for your assertion that letting riots burn themselves out leads to less rioting in the near term.  I just don't see the proof for that.

Riots =/= Property Damage. I think you are confusing the moment of riot (i.e., looting, burning places) with the initial moment of anger. Admittedly, the first is harder to de-escalate than the second, but the fact is, they all run their course pretty quickly. (i.e., they usually stop at the end of the night). That they often pick up again the following night (usually in the US) is usually the result of the same good old escalation recipes being deployed.

Damaging cars is not a riot. It's being used to express anger precisely because it's not physical violence against a human being. It also has a clear end. There is a limit to what you can do to a car, and it becomes eventually boring, the message is spent. It's a pattern that has been observed empirically. It also accords with my own experience.

Crowds with a purpose are not breaking everything left and right. They show up to a meaningful place. They shout. They want to be heard. Eventually, people disperse because, once again, routine sets in, and boredom too.

Empirically, riots usually emerge later, after there has been escalation - an escalation that is almost always the preferred response by police, because a) they feel they are not in control, and this fuels their restlessness, much more so than a clear assessment of actual risk and b) they feel property damages concern "valid" citizens, while protesters are usually seen in a much less flattering light.

There is a considerable body of work re: social movement scripts, and perception of crowds by police. (J. M. Jasper, R. Collins, C. Tilly, etc.)

[Syt]

Meanwhile, in Louisville, over a different case of being shot while being at home.

https://eu.courier-journal.com/story/news/politics/metro-government/2020/05/28/breonna-taylor-shooting-what-know-louisville-protest/5280762002/

Breonna Taylor protest in downtown Louisville draws hundreds. Here's what we know
Tessa Duvall and Darcy Costello Louisville Courier Journal

Published 2:18 AM EDT May 29, 2020

Louisville, Ky. — At least seven people were shot as hundreds of protesters in downtown Louisville gathered to demand justice for Breonna Taylor, the 26-year-old Louisville ER tech who was shot and killed by Louisville Metro Police in March.

Some shots were heard on scene just before 11:30 p.m., and a police spokeswoman confirmed the injuries at 1 a.m. in a statement. At least one of the victims is in critical condition.

"There have been some arrests, but at this time we are not able to tell you how many as the situation is ongoing," the statement from spokeswoman Alicia Smiley said. "Information on those arrests will be available tomorrow through court records of the arrests."

Police officers did not fire their guns, Smiley said.

Chants of "no justice, no peace" echoed through the streets as night fell and the hundreds who gathered traveled down Jefferson and Main streets. What started as a peaceful protest in the evening escalated as the night drew on, with the crowd being teargassed and glass storefronts shattered. As heavy rains moved into the area in the early morning hours, much of the crowd dispersed.

The protests in Louisville unfurled as other cities saw similar demonstrations over police killings of black Americans, including in Phoenix, Denver and Minneapolis, where a man named George Floyd died after an officer pressed his knee into Floyd's neck. Floyd's death was captured on camera, igniting a reaction across the nation.

As the situation in downtown Louisville escalated, Taylor's family took to social media to plead for peace.

"We are not going to stop until we get justice," Juniyah Palmer, Taylor's younger sister, said in a video. "But we should stop tonight before people get hurt."

Jessie Halladay, a spokeswoman for LMPD, briefly addressed the media via video chat, saying, "this is not what we want for our city."

"What we are seeing tonight in this community is the obvious frustration and tension between police and residents," Halladay said. "What started out as a peaceful protest earlier this evening is now escalating into property damage, more aggressive action and we've just heard reports of shots fired in the crowd.

"We have a lot to work through in this community as a police department and as residents, together, but this is not the way."

Mayor Greg Fischer first commented on the protests just before midnight, sharing a post from Taylor's family, which called for peace.

"Understandably, emotions are high," he said. "As Breonna's mother says, let's be peaceful as we work toward truth and justice."

Several streets are closed to car traffic, including the Second Street Bridge. LMPD, which has said it is monitoring the protest, has asked the public to avoid the area around Second Street due to the "large crowd."

Halladay said police have used "great restraint throughout the evening" as protesters blocked traffic.

But, as the protest entered its fourth or fifth hour, the situation escalated. Some in the crowd tried to flip an what appeared to be an ambulance or prison transport vehicle. There were reports of tear gas being used, though Halladay was not able to confirm that during her apperance.

"Our goal all evening has been to try to allow a peaceful demonstration," Halladay said. "I think we were doing that quite successfully. The crowd has moved around downtown in several ways, we have not engaged."

Palmer, Taylor's younger sister, wrote a statement on Facebook pleading for peace as protests escalated downtown.

Minute by minute: What happened the night police fatally shot Breonna Taylor

"We are so grateful for everyone giving Bre a voice tonight, for saying her name, for demanding truth, for demanding justice and for demanding accountability," Palmer wrote. "Please keep demanding this. But please keep it peaceful. Do not succumb to the levels that we see out of the police. Speak. Protest. But do not resort to violence. We demand change. We demand reform. But we do not need for our community to get hurt. We need for our community to get justice."

Here's what we know:

- An estimated 500 to 600 protesters have gathered in the streets of downtown Louisville for several hours.
- The gathering began as early as 6 or 7 p.m. and stretched past midnight.
- Taylor's death is a popular rallying cry for those gathered, with cries of "Say her name!" and "Breonna Taylor."
- Crowds moved from outside City Hall on Sixth Street to in front of the KFC Yum Center, where more police officers began to engage with the crowd.
- Protesters largely remained peaceful for much of the night, though some have thrown rocks or kicked police cars, and a statue was damaged early on.
- Officers appear to be wearing body armor and face shields and carrying batons. It is unknown how many officers were called in to the protest.
- Read more: 'It is not a riot. It is a revolt': Councilwoman responds to protest

Follow along from our reporters at the scene, Bailey Loosemore, Sarah Ladd and Cameron Teague Robinson, on Twitter and below:

Breonna Taylor's death:

https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/black-woman-shot-killed-after-kentucky-police-entered-her-home-n1205651

A woman was shot and killed in her Louisville, Kentucky, home by police executing a "botched" search warrant who forced their way in, surprising the woman and her boyfriend who thought the officers were burglars, her family says in a lawsuit.

The lawsuit — filed by the family of the woman, Breonna Taylor, an EMT worker — says she and her boyfriend thought they were being burglarized and he fired at the officers in self-defense. The lawsuit accuses the three officers of "blindly firing" more than 20 shots into the apartment.

After the March 13 incident, the Louisville Metro Police Department said the officers had knocked on the door several times and "announced their presence as police who were there with a search warrant." After forcing their way in, they "were immediately met by gunfire," Lt. Ted Eidem said at a news conference.

Taylor's death gained national attention this week after the family hired attorney Ben Crump, who is also representing the family of Ahmaud Arbery, the black man in Georgia who was killed on Feb. 23 after being pursued and shot by two white men. The two men are charged with murder and aggravated assault.

Taylor, 26, was shot eight times by police. Kenneth Walker, 27, was arrested and charged with assault and attempted murder on a police officer. An attorney for Walker could not immediately be reached.

Crump called Taylor's death a "senseless killing."

"We stand with the family of this young woman in demanding answers from the Louisville Police Department," he said in a statement Monday on Twitter.

The attorney called out the police department for not providing "any answers regarding the facts and circumstances of how this tragedy occurred."

"Breonna Taylor was sleeping while black in the sanctity of our own home," Crump said at a Wednesday press conference, adding, "we cannot continue to allow them to unnecessarily and justifiably kill our black women and escape any accountability."

Records show that the police investigation was centered around a "trap house" more than 10 miles from Taylor's apartment, and that a judge had approved a "no-knock" search warrant, meaning officers did not have to identify themselves, according to The Courier-Journal.

The lawsuit states that Taylor and her boyfriend, Walker, were asleep in their bedroom when police in plainclothes and unmarked vehicles arrived at the house looking for a suspect who lived in a different part of the city and was already in police custody.

The three officers entered Taylor's home "without knocking and without announcing themselves as police officers," the suit states.

The lawsuit says Taylor and Walker woke up and thought criminals were breaking in. Walker called 911 and police said he opened fire and shot an officer.

The cops had a no-knock warrant (which, in the US, with gun rights and self defense laws being what they are seems risky for the police, but ok), but say they knocked; Kenneth Walker says they didn't know. Difficult to prove, I suppose.

If these cops were out to apprehend a certain individual, how come they weren't notified that the guy was already in custody? (besides, what led them to this apartment, when it seems so far out of the way?)

[Syt]

Donald Trump finds soothing words to heal the wound and calm things down.

Donald J. Trump
@realDonaldTrump
·
1h
I can't stand back & watch this happen to a great American City, Minneapolis. A total lack of leadership. Either the very weak Radical Left Mayor, Jacob Frey, get his act together and bring the City under control, or I will send in the National Guard & get the job done right.....

....These THUGS are dishonoring the memory of George Floyd, and I won't let that happen. Just spoke to Governor Tim Walz and told him that the Military is with him all the way. Any difficulty and we will assume control but, when the looting starts, the shooting starts. Thank you!

Uh oh. 

[Syt]

Meanwhile in Columbus, Ohio:

https://www.cleveland.com/crime/2020/05/protesters-gather-in-columbus-over-death-of-george-floyd.html

Ohio Statehouse damaged during protests in Columbus over death of George Floyd

COLUMBUS, Ohio — Hundreds of people were protesting Thursday night in downtown Columbus, angered by the death of George Floyd after a Minneapolis police officer kneeled on Floyd's neck during an arrest on May 25.

The Columbus Dispatch says about 300 protesters blocked the intersection of Broad and High streets. There was a heavy police presence downtown, including a helicopter hovering overhead, and officers were warning the demonstrators to clear the intersection, the Dispatch reports.

The protests started peacefully, but escalated late Thursday night, according to reports. WCMH Channel 4 reporter Eric Halperin reports protesters began breaking windows at the Statehouse downtown and some had gone inside the building. Police officers moved in to guard the Statehouse, Halperin reports.

Bus stops also were damaged, and trash cans and other receptacles were tipped over.

Some plastic bottles and other small objects were thrown at police officers earlier in the evening. During the demonstration, protesters chanted "Black lives matter" and "Say his name" in reference to Floyd, according to reports. They also chanted "I can't breathe," a reference to the 2014 death of Eric Garner in New York.

WCMH Channel 4 reports that police used a chemical spray to push the crowd back at about 10:20 p.m., causing the crowd to partially disperse. However, there was still a large crowd on the street as of 11:15 p.m., according to video from WBNS Channel 10.

Demonstrations have been taking place across the country after video showed the arrest of Floyd in Minneapolis. In California, hundreds of people protesting Floyd's death blocked a Los Angeles freeway and shattered windows of California Highway Patrol cruisers, the Associated Press reports. Memphis police blocked a main thoroughfare after a racially mixed group of protesters gathered outside a police station.

In the Minneapolis-St. Paul area, protests have turned violent, with buildings burned and some stores being looted. NBC News reports a police precinct building was set on fire late Thursday night during the third straight night of violent protests. St. Paul Mayor Melvin Carter has requested help from the National Guard, CNN reports.

The video of the arrest showed Floyd, a 46-year-old black man, handcuffed and pinned to the ground by a white police officer who had his knee on the back of Floyd's neck. Floyd can be heard in videos of arrest complaining that he can't breath. He later died at a hospital.

Four police officers connected with the arrest have been fired.

Halperin reported tensions in Columbus began escalating around 11:15 p.m., showing video of a plastic bottle being thrown at the feet of a horse ridden by a police officer, startling the horse.

Columbus Mayor Andrew Ginther used Twitter to request that protests remain peaceful.

[Razgovory]

They would get more done of they were armed when they attacked the statehouse.

[Admiral Yi]

Having been in many demonstrations with a purpose, I absolutely do not share your appreciation of "mob mentality". People don't think about what they can get away with. They want to shout and express their anger.

Then why do so many protests end up in looting and destruction of property?

[garbon]

Donald Trump finds soothing words to heal the wound and calm things down.

Donald J. Trump
@realDonaldTrump
·
1h
I can't stand back & watch this happen to a great American City, Minneapolis. A total lack of leadership. Either the very weak Radical Left Mayor, Jacob Frey, get his act together and bring the City under control, or I will send in the National Guard & get the job done right.....

....These THUGS are dishonoring the memory of George Floyd, and I won't let that happen. Just spoke to Governor Tim Walz and told him that the Military is with him all the way. Any difficulty and we will assume control but, when the looting starts, the shooting starts. Thank you!

Uh oh. 

Oh wow.

[Syt]

Having been in many demonstrations with a purpose, I absolutely do not share your appreciation of "mob mentality". People don't think about what they can get away with. They want to shout and express their anger.

Then why do so many protests end up in looting and destruction of property?

Not many. Only many that you see on the news.

[Tamas]

Having been in many demonstrations with a purpose, I absolutely do not share your appreciation of "mob mentality". People don't think about what they can get away with. They want to shout and express their anger.

Then why do so many protests end up in looting and destruction of property?

Because you are both right and wrong. Almost as if events involving thousands directly and millions indirectly had very complex underlying motivations, issues, and consequences.

[The Larch]

I feel that something else has to be pointed out in the George Floyd case, and it's the original cause of action for the police. I just read why the police was called on for and I can't believe that the agents' actions ended up being what they were.