The Shooting Gallery: Police Violence MEGATHREAD

[merithyn]

I don't have any direct evidence of damage to federal property either.  Shall we make it a simple empirical question of damage/no damage?  My stance would change significantly if there were no damage (or the imminent threat of damage).  Would your stance change?

The one Federal building in downtown Portland was fenced off more than a month ago. There is no imminent threat of damage to that building, and hasn't been for over six weeks.

Does that change your stance?

[Admiral Yi]

The one Federal building in downtown Portland was fenced off more than a month ago. There is no imminent threat of damage to that building, and hasn't been for over six weeks.

Does that change your stance?

So the spray painting you mentioned happened over six weeks ago?  If so, and the fence can't be breached, then yes, my stance changes.

[grumbler]

TBF that "follow us and you get shot" incident was following the arrested lady trying to hit an officer on a motorbike with her protest sign, allegedly. That doesn't make the whole episode ok, but if true that's not exactly a Gandhi approach either.

If you want to hit someone with a sign, you are going to do it.  If you just step off the curb to make the cop on the motorcycle see your sign, then maybe it might look to some cops looking to add to their arrest total like she was trying to hit the cop, but they didn't investigate.  They went from zero to total gestapo in a heartbeat.  They followed none of the protocols for arrest, as well.  Plus, of course, the murder threat (minimum sentence two years in jail because the perp was carrying a gun).

These were San Diego police, not Feds, if that makes a difference to the argument.

[merithyn]

The one Federal building in downtown Portland was fenced off more than a month ago. There is no imminent threat of damage to that building, and hasn't been for over six weeks.

Does that change your stance?

So the spray painting you mentioned happened over six weeks ago?  If so, and the fence can't be breached, then yes, my stance changes.

That is correct.

There is no risk to any federal property of any kind in Portland at this time, and wasn't when the feds showed up.

[The Brain]

I'm currently re-reading Judge Dredd: The Complete Case Files.

Last time it was escapism, but now it's just to keep up with current affairs.

[Eddie Teach]

If you want to hit someone with a sign, you are going to do it. 

Unless you're blocked or dodged or just miss. Or they're on the other side of a computer screen. 

[merithyn]

And now they go to Chicago. No, this isn't frightening at all.

https://www.chicagotribune.com/news/criminal-justice/ct-chicago-police-dhs-deployment-20200720-dftu5ychwbcxtg4ltarh5qnwma-story.html

The U.S. Department of Homeland Security is crafting plans to deploy about 150 federal agents to Chicago this week, the Chicago Tribune has learned, a move that would come amid growing controversy nationally about federal force being used in American cities.

The Homeland Security Investigations, or HSI, agents are set to assist other federal law enforcement and Chicago police in crime-fighting efforts, according to sources familiar with the matter, though a specific plan on what the agents will be doing had not been made public.

[Razgovory]

So on the "Crazy shit that will happen in 2020" board who put money on "Secret Police".

[merithyn]

So on the "Crazy shit that will happen in 2020" board who put money on "Secret Police".

I had "civil war" so I think I'm closer to that one anyway.

[grumbler]

If you want to hit someone with a sign, you are going to do it. 

Unless you're blocked or dodged or just miss. Or they're on the other side of a computer screen. 

Well, apparently the motorcycle cop didn't think he was threatened, because he didn't stop.  I think we can rule out blocking or dodging, and if it was a clean miss it is going to be hard to prove in court that it was even intended.

[fromtia]

I specifically said the exact opposite just a while ago, so I guess you're calling me a liar.

Stop your flailing. You know I'm not calling you a liar, I'm implying that you are holding a ridiculous position, one so comic it must be a sly satire of sorts in your reflexive defense of these exciting new secret police Trump has deployed.

[Josquius]

But as I say this type of protest seems classic Gandhi/MLK approach - the purpose is to provoke a response.

I don't know the particulars, but I've read about "damage to federal property."  I'm guessing some spray painting, but that's just a guess.  That's not just provoking a response, that's breaking a law, a law that most people in this country probably think is a good and just law that needs no changing.  That's not what Gandhi and MLK did.

Gandhi and I'm pretty sure MLK broke laws too.
The salt march is a famous one.

[merithyn]

I'm just failing to see how anyone can be okay with what's happening in the US re: federal law enforcement refusing to listen to/ignoring state guidance on how to treat their citizens. So far it's Portland. Chicago later this week. Where to next? It sure as hell won't be Houston or Jacksonville. He needs those states.

This is not okay. This is what fascism looks and feels like.

[merithyn]

https://nypost.com/2020/07/20/trump-says-cuomo-must-end-nyc-crime-wave-or-he-will-step-in/

And now NYC.

[Tonitrus]

I'm just failing to see how anyone can be okay with what's happening in the US re: federal law enforcement refusing to listen to/ignoring state guidance on how to treat their citizens. So far it's Portland. Chicago later this week. Where to next? It sure as hell won't be Houston or Jacksonville. He needs those states.

This is not okay. This is what fascism looks and feels like.

I certainly would not belittle your underlying sentiment (in fact, I agree with it)...but I think it is also import to make it clear that this about the those issues that brought this present federal/local confrontation about.  The comparison won't seem fair, but the bolded bit, in isolation, could easily have been used by segregationists themselves in Little Rock circa 1957...and they likewise would have called it fascism.

But still, you're not wrong.  Use of federal authority had its time and place in enforcing justice and freedom.  Perhaps this time it is something state and local authorities need to assert...and it just that America has turned upside down.