Erdogan tells female journalist to "know her place"

[LaCroix]

"know your place. they gave you a pen and and you are writing a column in a newspaper. [so what do you do? you insult 99% of the muslims in the country you're reporting on.]"

Yes LaCroix, if you deliberately omit the very first line about "shameless woman" it does hide the gender connection . . .

Also, I see nothing in the lines about "journalistic integrity".  Saying things that might offend national or religious sensibilities perfectly consistent with journalistic integrity; it may be even required.

i wasn't trying to deliberately omit anything... you were already aware of the "shameless militant woman" part. that's the first thing i read, too, when i checked the article. but, actually:

"[you're a] shameless militant woman disguised under the name of a journalist. know your place. they gave you a pen and you are writing a column in a newspaper. [media invites you to speak before a nation and you insult 99% of the muslims of that nation]"

the "disguised under the name of a journalist" is even more indicative that "know your place" was made not to reference her gender, but her journalism. journalist, not "militant shameless woman," directly preceded the "know your place" comment. furthermore, he stuck with the journalistic aspect of her action and not her gender. the only reference to gender was one word. everything else after that was journalism.

[Valmy]

On the surface it doesn't seem like a genuine question but just political rhetoric. But like I said, I would like to hear more on what actually occurred.

What is a genuine question?  And why does it require no political rhetoric?  It seems to me this question addresses very serious and pertinent issues with regard to Erdogan and his regime.

[The Minsky Moment]

LaCroix - he said the word "journalist" once.  And the way he used was to say that there is a fundamental contradiction between being a "militant woman" and a "journalist". 

One does not have to be a committed feminist to see the problem there.

Nowhere does Erdogan say the word "integrity" or anything like it.  It is just an ad hominem attack against a person not identified by name but as a "woman" who needs to "know her place."

But let's say for the sake of argument, I accept that he was just referring to her purely in her capacity as a "journalist". And that the shameless militant woman stuff was just an excess of rhetorical zeal.

Then what Erdogan is saying is that journalists need to "know their place."

How does that make it better?

[LaCroix]

LaCroix - he said the word "journalist" once.  And the way he used was to say that there is a fundamental contradiction between being a "militant woman" and a "journalist". 

One does not have to be a committed feminist to see the problem there.

Nowhere does Erdogan say the word "integrity" or anything like it.  It is just an ad hominem attack against a person not identified by name but as a "woman" who needs to "know her place."

But let's say for the sake of argument, I accept that he was just referring to her purely in her capacity as a "journalist". And that the shameless militant woman stuff was just an excess of rhetorical zeal.

Then what Erdogan is saying is that journalists need to "know their place."

How does that make it better?

aren't these all translations? "know your place, woman" is fairly standard language used by misogynists, but here it may easily have been a literal translation like the stilted language in the last part of the comment re: media's invitation and her insult. "the journalist ought to know its place by not insulting 99% of a nation the journalist is reporting on" seems more likely than a sole attack on her gender. her gender didn't have anything to do with her actions, so why would he publicly focus on that as opposed to her journalistic credentials? it doesn't make much sense.

he didn't need to actually say the turkish version of "integrity" because he essentially described her lack of integrity immediately following the "show your place" comment.

minsky, my discussion in this thread has focused solely on what "know your place" referred to, because it seems to me news outlets are twisting what occurred to make it seem worse than it already is. i never said erdogan's rant was a good thing.

[crazy canuck]

the "know your place" comment seems to be referring to her journalistic integrity, that she should be acting like a journalist rather than pushing an agenda

I have to say that thus far (and thanks Syt for that added bit), I can't join the outraged crowd. Neither version of the question sounds like an honest question - but yeah just political rhetoric.

Most good journalists ask questions that have a political context.  Doesnt seem to make much sense to simply ask him what he ate for breakfast.

[CountDeMoney]

On a different note, I just heard a mother tell her daughter that there are more important things than just being intelligent.

So you met Mrs. derwomenshouldbenursesnotdoctors?

[crazy canuck]

minsky, my discussion in this thread has focused solely on what "know your place" referred to, because it seems to me news outlets are twisting what occurred to make it seem worse than it already is. i never said erdogan's rant was a good thing.

In either sense it is seems like a line out a worst disctator in the world skit as others have said.  Either he meant it as women should know their place and not ask such questions.  Or he meant it as journalists regardless of sex should know their place and not question the ties between religion and his politics.  I am not sure how one reads on gender from his comments but even if you were inclined to do so what is the point I am not so sure it makes if less "worse".

[crazy canuck]

On a different note, I just heard a mother tell her daughter that there are more important things than just being intelligent. Microaggresion!

I tend to agree.  Being intelligent and having billions of dollars would be much better than just being intelligent.

[Tonitrus]

I know this is serious and all but man this is like something out of a comedy sketch making fun of crazy dictators.  She was forced to resign for asking a question about tolerance for questioning authority?  In Soviet Turkey authority questions you!

Minsky's resignation article had no direct connection with the OP article.  She was a correspondent for The Economist.

[derspiess]

On a different note, I just heard a mother tell her daughter that there are more important things than just being intelligent.

So you met Mrs. derwomenshouldbenursesnotdoctors?

Mrs. derwomenshouldbenursesnotdoctors actually disagrees with me.  She recoiled in horror one time when I suggested that our daughter might be a nurse someday.  She's all like doctor or nothing.

[LaCroix]

In either sense it is seems like a line out a worst disctator in the world skit as others have said.  Either he meant it as women should know their place and not ask such questions.  Or he meant it as journalists regardless of sex should know their place and not question the ties between religion and his politics.  I am not sure how one reads on gender from his comments but even if you were inclined to do so what is the point I am not so sure it makes if less "worse".

i think it makes it worse because it's a dishonest portrayal of the exchange

[crazy canuck]

In either sense it is seems like a line out a worst disctator in the world skit as others have said.  Either he meant it as women should know their place and not ask such questions.  Or he meant it as journalists regardless of sex should know their place and not question the ties between religion and his politics.  I am not sure how one reads on gender from his comments but even if you were inclined to do so what is the point I am not so sure it makes if less "worse".

i think it makes it worse because it's a dishonest portrayal of the exchange

You have lost me.  To give you the benefit of the doubt, reasonable people can disagree on which interpretation of his words is most accurate.  I dont agree with yours but I can at least see why you might think you are correct.  I dont think that makes either interpretation "dishonest".

[LaCroix]

You have lost me.  To give you the benefit of the doubt, reasonable people can disagree on which interpretation of his words is most accurate.  I dont agree with yours but I can at least see why you might think you are correct.  I dont think that makes either interpretation "dishonest".

good point. if the journalists have honestly misinterpreted the comment, then you are correct.

[Viking]

Basically Erdogan is a Totalitarian Scumbag or a Misogynistic Scumbag or Both.

[Tonitrus]

Basically Erdogan is a Totalitarian Scumbag or a Misogynistic Scumbag or Both.

Those traits usually go together.