Russo-Ukrainian War 2014-25

[Sheilbh]

I'd slightly quibble with taking an anti-nationalist lens to this because I can't understand a frame for this fight that isn't basically Ukraine engaging in a national liberation/survival battle against Russia. Why else is Ukraine fighting if not for their nation to exist?

And yeah Russia isn't super great - but materially it has been far more successful than Ukraine for the last 25 years - GDP per capita in Ukraine is still below what it was in 1990. If that was all that mattered Ukraine should probably embrace becoming part of the Russian empire again. They're not and the reason is nationalism in a fight against a previous imperial overlord wanting to impose themselves and their culture on Ukraine again. It is looking to Europe and the West because there is model there that does not involve dissolving the Ukrainian nation.

The tribe, nationalism - all of that is also the stuff that is powering Ukrainian resistance (and that powered national liberation across Africa and Asia all through the twentieth century and ended empires). I don't think it's enough to simply point to the Russian side and say it's bad if, like me, you are remotely seduced by the Ukrainian side. I feel like it needs a bit more thinking - and I'm nowhere near there yet in thinking that through to anything like a conclusion. It's just a contradiction in my own takes I'm aware of.

[crazy canuck]

One thing I've always found odd about rampant over-Nationalism like what you see in Russia, or what you saw even in the USSR, is how people are so convinced of the awesomeness of their awesome, even when the evidence right in front of them would suggest that if you think Russia is so fucking great....why is it is fucking terrible?

If Russia is so star spangled awesome, why is everyone an alcoholic by the time they are like, 12? As an example.

Of course, I know the answer - it's the same answer to the question of why people seem to believe Trump really won. The power of the tribe and the emotional need to suffer any cognitive dissonance necessary so you can maintain your place in it overcomes (apparently trivially overcomes) the actual evidence in front of your eyeballs.

It does seem like a paradox that enthusiasm for the ideology seems inversely correlated with its success.

Capitalism seems to have done pretty well but Liberal Democracy might be closer to the sort of inverse relationship you are thinking about.

[Admiral Yi]

Looks like Cam Hub pulled the plug on Russians.

[Eddie Teach]

Now their economy will really suffer.

[Josquius]

I'd slightly quibble with taking an anti-nationalist lens to this because I can't understand a frame for this fight that isn't basically Ukraine engaging in a national liberation/survival battle against Russia. Why else is Ukraine fighting if not for their nation to exist?

I mean that was WW2 too. Its the case any time a nation is invaded.
When it's ultra nationalist pseudo fascists doing the invading then that's who the villain is.

This war isn't just two competing nationalisms butting heads to see which is best. It's nationalists seeking to conquer a territory they view as an illegitimate country and a rightful part of their nation.

It doesn't really matter in this whether Ukraine itself is a hyper nationalist dictatorship, an anarchist commune, a regular democracy, or anything else. That's not the cause of the war.

And yeah Russia isn't super great - but materially it has been far more successful than Ukraine for the last 25 years - GDP per capita in Ukraine is still below what it was in 1990. If that was all that mattered Ukraine should probably embrace becoming part of the Russian empire again. They're not and the reason is nationalism in a fight against a previous imperial overlord wanting to impose themselves and their culture on Ukraine again. It is looking to Europe and the West because there is model there that does not involve dissolving the Ukrainian nation

Because for much of its post ussr history Ukraine has followed Russia. Its only in recent years it has begun trying to follow the path of serious democracy and more engagement with the wider world. Previously it very much acted as a mini Russia complete with oligarchs and rampant corruption as defining features.
Ukraines past shit performance is what it is fighting against here. Not what it is defending.

[Malthus]

I'd slightly quibble with taking an anti-nationalist lens to this because I can't understand a frame for this fight that isn't basically Ukraine engaging in a national liberation/survival battle against Russia. Why else is Ukraine fighting if not for their nation to exist?

And yeah Russia isn't super great - but materially it has been far more successful than Ukraine for the last 25 years - GDP per capita in Ukraine is still below what it was in 1990. If that was all that mattered Ukraine should probably embrace becoming part of the Russian empire again. They're not and the reason is nationalism in a fight against a previous imperial overlord wanting to impose themselves and their culture on Ukraine again. It is looking to Europe and the West because there is model there that does not involve dissolving the Ukrainian nation.

The tribe, nationalism - all of that is also the stuff that is powering Ukrainian resistance (and that powered national liberation across Africa and Asia all through the twentieth century and ended empires). I don't think it's enough to simply point to the Russian side and say it's bad if, like me, you are remotely seduced by the Ukrainian side. I feel like it needs a bit more thinking - and I'm nowhere near there yet in thinking that through to anything like a conclusion. It's just a contradiction in my own takes I'm aware of.

An anthropological perspective may help - identities are not a given. They are often constructed by events. Ukraine was a deeply divided nation, with a bunch of different fissure lines - Ukrainian speakers, Ukrainian nationalists, Russian speakers, Catholic and Orthodox. At one point, it was distinctly possible to envision the country split between a more Catholic, more Ukrainian speaking west, and a more orthodox, more Russian speaking east.

Obviously, Putin attempted to exploit these differences, what with his "independent republics".

However, the very fact of Putin's bullying, harassment and invasion has had a profound impact on the population of Ukraine. It has created a united national consciousness out of what had been a rather fractured polity. In anthropology-speak, this is what is termed an "oppositional ethnicity". People who may, under different circumstances, have considered themselves "Russians" (who happened to live in a geographical region of the former Soviet Union called "Ukraine") now consider themselves "Ukrainians", because "Russia" is the enemy.

Not all "nationalism" is the same. You can see the difference at work here. Some types of "nationalism" carry with them the belief is some sort of historical destiny, to incorporate (or dominate) others for the greater good - no doubt there are some Ukrainian nationalists who are like that, but most are not; they are nationalists in this oppositional sense, in that they are opposed to being swallowed up by Putin's Russia.

A historical analogy I've mentioned before is the experience of my own province during the War of 1812. In fact, at that time a large proportion of the population of the province of Upper Canada was composed of Americans, who had arrived after the Revolution. They came here for cheap land and low taxes. Both the Americans and the British thought these people would act as "fifth columnists" for the Americans in the War (after all, these folks had no loyalty to the British Crown, and why wouldn't they prefer the glories of American democracy?). However, they did not - they by and large, with a few exceptions, fought against the Americans. The experience of being invaded created an oppositional nationalism, made them more "Canadian" than they otherwise might be.

[DGuller]

Speaking of dead Russian generals, it turns out that the figure of four killed generals is no longer accurate.  The correct number is now five.  The newest addition is the highest ranking of them all.

What is going on here?  It doesn't seem accidental, it seems like Ukrainians have pretty good intel on where the generals are, and do their best to make sure that the drones or sniper bullets also find their way there.  As badly as things are going for Russian troops, they're probably not going so badly that they bring about such a fatality rate on the front lines.

[Malthus]

Speaking of dead Russian generals, it turns out that the figure of four killed generals is no longer accurate.  The correct number is now five.  The newest addition is the highest ranking of them all.

What is going on here?  It doesn't seem accidental, it seems like Ukrainians have pretty good intel on where the generals are, and do their best to make sure that the drones or sniper bullets also find their way there.  As badly as things are going for Russian troops, they're probably not going so badly that they bring about such a fatality rate on the front lines.

What I have heard is that the important factor is the crappy Russian communication system, which allegedly forces these generals to communicate on unsecured cell phones. This has allowed the Ukrainians to fix their positions with great accuracy and kill them with drone strikes or artillery.

[celedhring]

So they are doing a Dudayev to Russian generals? Ironic.

[Crazy_Ivan80]

we can only hope that the Ukrainians can kill of the Russian army faster than the Russian army can learn...

[celedhring]

we can only hope that the Ukrainians can kill of the Russian army faster than the Russian army can learn...

At this point, it looks like they would be better off replacing their generalship with the HoI AI.

I hope there's a chance we eventually learn what went on with the "planning" of this operation. The Russian army's incompetence so far is truly puzzling. Yes, war is hard, and they are riddled with corruption and treating their soldiers like cattle probably isn't inspiring great morale, but still... they seem to be failing at everything - including the kind of things the Russian army is supposed to be good at.

[Maladict]

Speaking of dead Russian generals, it turns out that the figure of four killed generals is no longer accurate.  The correct number is now five.  The newest addition is the highest ranking of them all.

What is going on here?  It doesn't seem accidental, it seems like Ukrainians have pretty good intel on where the generals are, and do their best to make sure that the drones or sniper bullets also find their way there.  As badly as things are going for Russian troops, they're probably not going so badly that they bring about such a fatality rate on the front lines.

What I have heard is that the important factor is the crappy Russian communication system, which allegedly forces these generals to communicate on unsecured cell phones. This has allowed the Ukrainians to fix their positions with great accuracy and kill them with drone strikes or artillery.

I hope they get Kadyrov next.

[FunkMonk]

Speaking of dead Russian generals, it turns out that the figure of four killed generals is no longer accurate.  The correct number is now five.  The newest addition is the highest ranking of them all.

What is going on here?  It doesn't seem accidental, it seems like Ukrainians have pretty good intel on where the generals are, and do their best to make sure that the drones or sniper bullets also find their way there.  As badly as things are going for Russian troops, they're probably not going so badly that they bring about such a fatality rate on the front lines.

What I have heard is that the important factor is the crappy Russian communication system, which allegedly forces these generals to communicate on unsecured cell phones. This has allowed the Ukrainians to fix their positions with great accuracy and kill them with drone strikes or artillery.

The Ukrainians are most likely getting world-class ELINT from American birds flying over Poland and the Black Sea, too. Fine leather interiors and luxury chrome rims, you name it, we're sending it first-class courtesy the North Atlantic Treaty Organization, no-money-down, no APR for the life of the loan.

[Legbiter]

Speaking of dead Russian generals, it turns out that the figure of four killed generals is no longer accurate.  The correct number is now five.

Careless.

[Josquius]

The most recent dead general being responsible for a massacre in 2014 when he agreed a cease fire to allow Ukranian troops to leave and then murdered them