News:

And we're back!

Main Menu

Russo-Ukrainian War 2014-25

Started by mongers, August 06, 2014, 03:12:53 PM

Previous topic - Next topic

Sheilbh

Quote from: The Minsky Moment on Today at 10:37:21 AMMainstream parties still mostly have a commitment to objective factual truth in describing the world and to policy solutions that actually could work.  That puts them at a big disadvantage as against the "analysis and theory" of the extremes, which have no such pesky constraints.
I don't think that's at all true. I mean whether it's FDR, or Reagan, or Thatcher, or for that matter Blair or Clinton - they had an analysis and a theory. I don't think it's adequate for the moment the US is in but I think the closest to that within the mainstream at the minute is probably the Abundance guys which is, I think, at least a start.

I think we are in one of those points, like the 30s and the 70s, were things are shifting.

QuoteHow would someone in the 1930s have imagined drone warfare taking out economic infrastructure targets hundreds of miles behind enemy lines.
"The bomber will always get through"?
Let's bomb Russia!

The Minsky Moment

Quote from: crazy canuck on Today at 11:30:12 AMHow would someone in the 1930s have imagined drone warfare taking out economic infrastructure targets hundreds of miles behind enemy lines.

"The drone will always get through"   (?)
We have, accordingly, always had plenty of excellent lawyers, though we often had to do without even tolerable administrators, and seen destined to endure the inconvenience of hereafter doing without any constructive statesmen at all.
--Woodrow Wilson

Valmy

I was about to say...people in the 30s suspected something like that. They just thought it would be bombers.
Quote"This is a Russian warship. I propose you lay down arms and surrender to avoid bloodshed & unnecessary victims. Otherwise, you'll be bombed."

Zmiinyi defenders: "Russian warship, go fuck yourself."

crazy canuck

Quote from: The Minsky Moment on Today at 11:43:19 AM
Quote from: crazy canuck on Today at 11:30:12 AMHow would someone in the 1930s have imagined drone warfare taking out economic infrastructure targets hundreds of miles behind enemy lines.

"The drone will always get through"   (?)


No, to damage the enemy at range required costly investment in the manufacture and development of bombers.  The opposite of what is occurring now.
Awarded 17 Zoupa points

In several surveys, the overwhelming first choice for what makes Canada unique is multiculturalism. This, in a world collapsing into stupid, impoverishing hatreds, is the distinctly Canadian national project.

crazy canuck

Quote from: Valmy on Today at 11:44:17 AMI was about to say...people in the 30s suspected something like that. They just thought it would be bombers.

They just thought it would require something completely different.  Yeah, sort of the point.
Awarded 17 Zoupa points

In several surveys, the overwhelming first choice for what makes Canada unique is multiculturalism. This, in a world collapsing into stupid, impoverishing hatreds, is the distinctly Canadian national project.

Valmy

Quote from: crazy canuck on Today at 11:53:17 AM
Quote from: Valmy on Today at 11:44:17 AMI was about to say...people in the 30s suspected something like that. They just thought it would be bombers.

They just thought it would require something completely different.  Yeah, sort of the point.

Something different sure.

Though the idea of remote controlled flying bombs was certainly a concept back then. The Germans experimented with them during the war. So not exactly a huge stretch. The basic concept of winning via bombing while the front line is static is similar.
Quote"This is a Russian warship. I propose you lay down arms and surrender to avoid bloodshed & unnecessary victims. Otherwise, you'll be bombed."

Zmiinyi defenders: "Russian warship, go fuck yourself."

Tamas

Quote from: crazy canuck on Today at 11:52:38 AM
Quote from: The Minsky Moment on Today at 11:43:19 AM
Quote from: crazy canuck on Today at 11:30:12 AMHow would someone in the 1930s have imagined drone warfare taking out economic infrastructure targets hundreds of miles behind enemy lines.

"The drone will always get through"   (?)


No, to damage the enemy at range required costly investment in the manufacture and development of bombers.  The opposite of what is occurring now.

You are ignoring the main point (which has merit as an interesting trivia) and instead get hung up on minor details and semantics.

On this forum of all places.

Sheilbh

I looked that line up. I knew it was Baldwin - but I didn't realise it was from 1932 and in context is far more interesting and sort of extraordinary than I'd expected:
QuoteI think it is well also for the man in the street to realise that there is no power on earth that can protect him from being bombed. Whatever people may tell him, the bomber will always get through. The only defence is in offence, which means that you have to kill more women and children more quickly than the enemy if you want to save yourselves... If the conscience of the young men should ever come to feel, with regard to this one instrument [bombing] that it is evil and should go, the thing will be done; but if they do not feel like that – well, as I say, the future is in their hands. But when the next war comes, and European civilisation is wiped out, as it will be, and by no force more than that force, then do not let them lay blame on the old men. Let them remember that they, principally, or they alone, are responsible for the terrors that have fallen upon the earth.

I hadn't realised it was basically a bit like the argument against nukes.
Let's bomb Russia!

crazy canuck

Quote from: Valmy on Today at 11:58:53 AM
Quote from: crazy canuck on Today at 11:53:17 AM
Quote from: Valmy on Today at 11:44:17 AMI was about to say...people in the 30s suspected something like that. They just thought it would be bombers.

They just thought it would require something completely different.  Yeah, sort of the point.

Something different sure.

Though the idea of remote controlled flying bombs was certainly a concept back then. The Germans experimented with them during the war. So not exactly a huge stretch. The basic concept of winning via bombing while the front line is static is similar.

"During the war" not the claim Jos was making
Awarded 17 Zoupa points

In several surveys, the overwhelming first choice for what makes Canada unique is multiculturalism. This, in a world collapsing into stupid, impoverishing hatreds, is the distinctly Canadian national project.

crazy canuck

Quote from: Tamas on Today at 01:02:32 PM
Quote from: crazy canuck on Today at 11:52:38 AM
Quote from: The Minsky Moment on Today at 11:43:19 AM
Quote from: crazy canuck on Today at 11:30:12 AMHow would someone in the 1930s have imagined drone warfare taking out economic infrastructure targets hundreds of miles behind enemy lines.

"The drone will always get through"   (?)


No, to damage the enemy at range required costly investment in the manufacture and development of bombers.  The opposite of what is occurring now.

You are ignoring the main point (which has merit as an interesting trivia) and instead get hung up on minor details and semantics.

On this forum of all places.

I am addressing the main point, and you are handwaving away the criticism.
Awarded 17 Zoupa points

In several surveys, the overwhelming first choice for what makes Canada unique is multiculturalism. This, in a world collapsing into stupid, impoverishing hatreds, is the distinctly Canadian national project.

Josquius

Obviously it wouldn't be an exact comparison. It should go without saying that they were imagining manned flying machines rather than drones.
But the end result does seem quite similar.
The main difference I see is not being pedantic over drones but that even Russia is tiptoing away somewhat from a full "the bomber will always get through approach." Not quite levelling cities completely but doing it in a more limited way, seeking optimal terror and despair rather than death itself.
██████
██████
██████