Libertarian Fascists for Mother Russia

[Razgovory]

Do you have a problem with voluntary slavery Raz?  That, and abolition of the public accomodation portions of the Civil Rights Act are very consistent with my interpretation of libertarianism.

I have a host of problems with libertarianism, however I agree that both abolition of public accommodations and voluntary slavery is consistent with libertarianism as I understand it.

[derspiess]

* Outside of Europe and Japan, maybe.  Are there openly fascist parties in Europe?

Minor ones. Golden Dawn in Greece is probably more neo-nazi than fascist. Italy's Forza Nuovo dress up in black shirts and can be considered fascist. Not sure where to place Hungary's Jobbik.

Depending on who you ask, the list may be longer or shorter.
Some proudly declare themselves fascists still. We used to have poster here from Portugal who did.

The NDP in Germany seems to be a bit fascist. Not a huge party but they're there.

[Jacob]

* Outside of Europe and Japan, maybe.  Are there openly fascist parties in Europe?

Golden Dawn in Greece? Italy has one as well, doesn't it?

[Norgy]

* Outside of Europe and Japan, maybe.  Are there openly fascist parties in Europe?

Minor ones. Golden Dawn in Greece is probably more neo-nazi than fascist. Italy's Forza Nuovo dress up in black shirts and can be considered fascist. Not sure where to place Hungary's Jobbik.

Depending on who you ask, the list may be longer or shorter.
Some proudly declare themselves fascists still. We used to have poster here from Portugal who did.

The NDP in Germany seems to be a bit fascist. Not a huge party but they're there.

I would say they are a fascist party, but they wouldn't define themselves that way, I think.
The ÖVP in Austria was always a bit brownshirty in their fringes.
The Sweden Democrats probably would deny being fascist, but have a neo-nazi past. Parties change over time, no doubt, so I give them the benefit of the doubt on this day when a self-proclaimed fascist extinguished the lives of public servants and Labour Youth members alike three years ago.

I think DGuller's very wrong in the opening post of this thread. Fascism sometimes go hand in hand with right-wing populism. Demagogues on the left are also opportunists, populists and sometimes closet fascists. They offer quick, often dramatic solutions to complex issues and while rarely winning elections certainly make a dent in the vote.

[grumbler]

I would say they are a fascist party, but they wouldn't define themselves that way, I think.
The ÖVP in Austria was always a bit brownshirty in their fringes.
The Sweden Democrats probably would deny being fascist, but have a neo-nazi past. Parties change over time, no doubt, so I give them the benefit of the doubt on this day when a self-proclaimed fascist extinguished the lives of public servants and Labour Youth members alike three years ago. 

The key here is openly  fascist, like openly "libertarian."  If one tries to hide fascist tendencies, then they are not like those who, as Jacob notes, steal liberal ideals for their non-liberal doctrine.

[grumbler]

And the key to libertarianism is that one owns ones own self (and that ownership of property comes from self-ownership).  Voluntary slavery isn't comparable with that, unless self-slavery is not actually slavery at all.

Unless i don't understand libertarianism at all.  Someone with more knowledge about it can feel free to correct this statement.

[garbon]

"I should get to do whatever I want, but I don't give a fuck about anyone else".

[Norgy]

I would say they are a fascist party, but they wouldn't define themselves that way, I think.
The ÖVP in Austria was always a bit brownshirty in their fringes.
The Sweden Democrats probably would deny being fascist, but have a neo-nazi past. Parties change over time, no doubt, so I give them the benefit of the doubt on this day when a self-proclaimed fascist extinguished the lives of public servants and Labour Youth members alike three years ago. 

The key here is openly  fascist, like openly "libertarian."  If one tries to hide fascist tendencies, then they are not like those who, as Jacob notes, steal liberal ideals for their non-liberal doctrine.

I agree.
Some populist parties hide behind Thatcherite economics while retaining much of their illiberal ideology in other areas. They usually have "Freedom", "Progress", "Democratic" or "People's" in their names.

[grumbler]

I agree.
Some populist parties hide behind Thatcherite economics while retaining much of their illiberal ideology in other areas. They usually have "Freedom", "Progress", "Democratic" or "People's" in their names.

I thought "Peoples'" had been thoroughly discredited by now.  Are there still "Peoples'" parties in Europe?  I know there are fake "Freedom" and "Progress" parties. 

I am still uncertain (even after all these years!  ) if Thatcherism was liberal or conservative.

[Norgy]

I agree.
Some populist parties hide behind Thatcherite economics while retaining much of their illiberal ideology in other areas. They usually have "Freedom", "Progress", "Democratic" or "People's" in their names.

I thought "Peoples'" had been thoroughly discredited by now.  Are there still "Peoples'" parties in Europe?  I know there are fake "Freedom" and "Progress" parties. 

I am still uncertain (even after all these years!  ) if Thatcherism was liberal or conservative.

I'm so not the right person to ask about Thatcher. 

Yeah, there are still "People's" parties. Some genuine, like the Swedish one. Some are right-wing populists like The Danish People's Party and the ÖVP in Austria.
Proportional representation elections makes for some strange parties being represented.

[Admiral Yi]

What are the determinants of a "genuine people's party?" Fairly honest question.

[derspiess]

Used to be a left thing but now volks/folks is very much a right-wing populist thang.

[Norgy]

What are the determinants of a "genuine people's party?" Fairly honest question.

The Swedish Folkpartiet is an old social-liberal party. In English it's "The People's Party".

A lot of these populist "People's parties" or "Freedom Parties" have sprung up like fungii during the past few decades. They mostly represent neither.

[Norgy]

Used to be a left thing but now volks/folks is very much a right-wing populist thang.

Spot on.

[Razgovory]

And the key to libertarianism is that one owns ones own self (and that ownership of property comes from self-ownership).  Voluntary slavery isn't comparable with that, unless self-slavery is not actually slavery at all.

Unless i don't understand libertarianism at all.  Someone with more knowledge about it can feel free to correct this statement.

I am someone with more knowledge and you are wrong.  If someone owns something, then they should be able to sell it.  Therefore, if someone owns them selves they should be able to sell themselves.

I do thank you for giving me the opportunity to set you right.  I just know you won't argue with me over this like you did with Guller.