For or against a constitutional amendment that would overturn Citizens United

Started by jimmy olsen, July 21, 2014, 08:34:31 PM

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Would you support an amendment to the U.S. constitution to limit the influence of money on elections

For
30 (68.2%)
Against
10 (22.7%)
Other
4 (9.1%)

Total Members Voted: 43

chipwich

Quote from: mongers on July 24, 2014, 05:18:30 PM
Quote from: chipwich on July 24, 2014, 05:14:14 PM
Of course corporations have a right to self-defense. Why do you think banks have guards with guns?


Chipwich, how are you doing ?   :)

I',m feeling alright, even though I am in Ide-esque unemployment

mongers

Quote from: chipwich on July 24, 2014, 05:20:08 PM
Quote from: mongers on July 24, 2014, 05:18:30 PM
Quote from: chipwich on July 24, 2014, 05:14:14 PM
Of course corporations have a right to self-defense. Why do you think banks have guards with guns?


Chipwich, how are you doing ?   :)

I',m feeling alright, even though I am in Ide-esque unemployment

Don't worry, you're young, something will workout and you still have plenty of opportunities(time). 
"We have it in our power to begin the world over again"

Valmy

Quote from: chipwich on July 24, 2014, 05:14:14 PM
Of course corporations have a right to self-defense. Why do you think banks have guards with guns?

So if the board gets together and decides to disband the corporation those guards will open fire?
Quote"This is a Russian warship. I propose you lay down arms and surrender to avoid bloodshed & unnecessary victims. Otherwise, you'll be bombed."

Zmiinyi defenders: "Russian warship, go fuck yourself."

chipwich

Quote from: mongers on July 24, 2014, 05:23:07 PM
Quote from: chipwich on July 24, 2014, 05:20:08 PM
Quote from: mongers on July 24, 2014, 05:18:30 PM
Quote from: chipwich on July 24, 2014, 05:14:14 PM
Of course corporations have a right to self-defense. Why do you think banks have guards with guns?


Chipwich, how are you doing ?   :)

I'm 26, kinda pushing the "

I',m feeling alright, even though I am in Ide-esque unemployment

Don't worry, you're young, something will workout and you still have plenty of opportunities(time).

Unfortunately I'm 26, kinda pushing the "young" angle.

Valmy

Quote"This is a Russian warship. I propose you lay down arms and surrender to avoid bloodshed & unnecessary victims. Otherwise, you'll be bombed."

Zmiinyi defenders: "Russian warship, go fuck yourself."

chipwich

Quote from: Valmy on July 24, 2014, 05:24:23 PM
Quote from: chipwich on July 24, 2014, 05:14:14 PM
Of course corporations have a right to self-defense. Why do you think banks have guards with guns?

So if the board gets together and decides to disband the corporation those guards will open fire?

No, self-defense only works in specific circumstances. Even a prisoner on death row doesn't have the right to defend himself against the people who are trying to kill them

chipwich

Quote from: The Minsky Moment on July 24, 2014, 03:08:46 PM
Quote from: chipwich on July 24, 2014, 02:23:53 PM
Minsk: Do you actually believe that the New York Times has no speech/press rights since it's a corporation?

To say that the NYT Company has "press rights" is a sloppy form of expression.  If meant metaphorically or as a kind of mental shortcut, it isn't a big deal, but taken literally it can lead to serious error.

The First Amendment is a restriction on Congress from restraining the freedom of the press.  The implication of the Amendment is that it bars Congress from doing certain things that might in turn impact on the NYT Corporation.   But it isn't right to leap from that to say that the NYT corporation, qua corporation "has rights"
If the corporation does not have rights it cannot sue the government when those rights are violated.
Quote
Despite its absolutist literal language, the First Amendment is in reality typically applied according to rules of reason, i.e. weighing the impact on speech and expression vs. the interest served by regulation in accordance with a standard.  The relevant impact is measured with respect to human beings not artificial entities.  Because it is possible that a restriction aimed at an artificial entity can materially impact natural persons, however, the Court quite rightly has held over the years the rule LaCroix quoted in Austin - the fact that "X" is a corporation does not mean that speech emanating from "X" is wholly outside the protection of the First Amendment.  Sometimes that complex formulation is reduced to shorthand of talking about "corporate freedom of expression.". That's not really the right way to talk about it, but as long as that was understood as merely convenient shorthand, no harm no foul.  But with Citizens United and Hobby Lobby, the Court tumbled down the slippery slope.

I'm not familiar with Austin (which apparently has been overturned). I am familiar with http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Minneapolis_Star_Tribune_Company_v._Commissioner which states that corpotations can sue for damages under the first amendment.

CountDeMoney

Quote from: chipwich on July 24, 2014, 05:14:14 PM
Of course corporations have a right to self-defense. Why do you think banks have guards with guns?

To prevent the redistribution of wealth outside the boardroom and Wall Street.

Razgovory

Quote from: chipwich on July 24, 2014, 05:26:46 PM
Quote from: Valmy on July 24, 2014, 05:24:23 PM
Quote from: chipwich on July 24, 2014, 05:14:14 PM
Of course corporations have a right to self-defense. Why do you think banks have guards with guns?

So if the board gets together and decides to disband the corporation those guards will open fire?

No, self-defense only works in specific circumstances. Even a prisoner on death row doesn't have the right to defend himself against the people who are trying to kill them

A prisoner on death row and been given due process.  I'm not sure if purchased by corporate raiders counts as a due process.
I've given it serious thought. I must scorn the ways of my family, and seek a Japanese woman to yield me my progeny. He shall live in the lands of the east, and be well tutored in his sacred trust to weave the best traditions of Japan and the Sacred South together, until such time as he (or, indeed his house, which will periodically require infusion of both Southern and Japanese bloodlines of note) can deliver to the South it's independence, either in this world or in space.  -Lettow April of 2011

Raz is right. -MadImmortalMan March of 2017

garbon

Quote from: chipwich on July 24, 2014, 05:25:08 PM
Quote from: mongers on July 24, 2014, 05:23:07 PM
Quote from: chipwich on July 24, 2014, 05:20:08 PM
Quote from: mongers on July 24, 2014, 05:18:30 PM
Quote from: chipwich on July 24, 2014, 05:14:14 PM
Of course corporations have a right to self-defense. Why do you think banks have guards with guns?


Chipwich, how are you doing ?   :)

I'm 26, kinda pushing the "

I',m feeling alright, even though I am in Ide-esque unemployment

Don't worry, you're young, something will workout and you still have plenty of opportunities(time).

Unfortunately I'm 26, kinda pushing the "young" angle.

:lol:
"I've never been quite sure what the point of a eunuch is, if truth be told. It seems to me they're only men with the useful bits cut off."
I drank because I wanted to drown my sorrows, but now the damned things have learned to swim.

Razgovory

I've given it serious thought. I must scorn the ways of my family, and seek a Japanese woman to yield me my progeny. He shall live in the lands of the east, and be well tutored in his sacred trust to weave the best traditions of Japan and the Sacred South together, until such time as he (or, indeed his house, which will periodically require infusion of both Southern and Japanese bloodlines of note) can deliver to the South it's independence, either in this world or in space.  -Lettow April of 2011

Raz is right. -MadImmortalMan March of 2017

Eddie Teach

To sleep, perchance to dream. But in that sleep of death, what dreams may come?

Ideologue

Quote from: CountDeMoney on July 24, 2014, 04:03:20 PM
Sounds to me like corporations can be killed in self-defense.
:lol:

Quote from: Chip
I',m feeling alright, even though I am in Ide-esque unemployment

Underemployment, sir.
Kinemalogue
Current reviews: The 'Burbs (9/10); Gremlins 2: The New Batch (9/10); John Wick: Chapter 2 (9/10); A Cure For Wellness (4/10)

Ideologue

Quote from: garbon on July 24, 2014, 07:16:21 PM
QuoteUnfortunately I'm 26, kinda pushing the "young" angle.

:lol:

No, he's got it straight.  I wish I'd known when I was 26 that 30 was the new 40.  He's got four years and I think he'll make them count a bit better.
Kinemalogue
Current reviews: The 'Burbs (9/10); Gremlins 2: The New Batch (9/10); John Wick: Chapter 2 (9/10); A Cure For Wellness (4/10)

garbon

Quote from: Ideologue on July 24, 2014, 09:12:53 PM
Quote from: garbon on July 24, 2014, 07:16:21 PM
QuoteUnfortunately I'm 26, kinda pushing the "young" angle.

:lol:

No, he's got it straight.  I wish I'd known when I was 26 that 30 was the new 40.  He's got four years and I think he'll make them count a bit better.

You're reaching Gral levels.
"I've never been quite sure what the point of a eunuch is, if truth be told. It seems to me they're only men with the useful bits cut off."
I drank because I wanted to drown my sorrows, but now the damned things have learned to swim.