To what extent has democracy in the US been subverted by money?

[Valmy]

It seems to me the American public should attempt to push for real reform of the political system (including the way it is funded).

The Bill of Rights gives us the means.  We can amend the Constitution using a convention of states and bypass Congress and the Feds altogether.  Of course this has never been done in the history of the nation but, you know, theoretically possible.

[crazy canuck]

... I have to side with Democrats, because we live in a two-party system ...  The system isn't that broken, the voters are, and not just the partisan ones.

The system is fundamentally broken.

First past the post system, which essentially leads to having two significant parties at any one time, is definitely not the most efficient system, and not one that maximizes the voters' franchise.  But we had it for 200+ years and it seems to work well enough.  It may be part of the problem, but not really THE problem.

Given the way the two parties have entrenched themselves I am not sure moving to a different way of determining the winner would make much difference.  Also a first past the post system does not inevitably lead to only a two party system.  You need only look North for confirmation of that.  Although the NDP have never formed a Federal government they have managed to develop many policy initiatives which have been adoped by the other two parties and in that way they have had a signficant impact on the governing of Canada.

[Valmy]

The Brits have also had the odd third party kicking around for most of their history.  But generally he is right.

[Berkut]

And standing up on your soapbox going on about Evol Republicans will just turn it into yet another partisan pissing contest, which maybe you will feel awesome about because you are so certain how right this was all the Green Drazi's fault, but it isn't going to help convince the Green Drazi that they should work with the Purple Drazi to actually fix the fucking problem.

How is it different from standing on a soapbox of congratulating yourself on lack of partisanship?

I haven't done that.

Just because I haven't started ranting and raving in your oh so typical partisan manner does not mean I am congratulating myself on my lack thereof.

I don't think there is a partisan solution, so I haven't been talking about it.

You seem to not care about the problem nearly as much as you care about your ability to blame it on the other tribe. I cannot say I am surprised, but I can say I am not interested.

[Berkut]

It seems to me the American public should attempt to push for real reform of the political system (including the way it is funded).

The Bill of Rights gives us the means.  We can amend the Constitution using a convention of states and bypass Congress and the Feds altogether.  Of course this has never been done in the history of the nation but, you know, theoretically possible.

I have pretty much arrived at the conclusion that this is the only possible recourse.

Congress certainly isn't going to fix it.

[DGuller]

You seem to not care about the problem nearly as much as you care about your ability to blame it on the other tribe. I cannot say I am surprised, but I can say I am not interested.

No, I very much care about the problem.  I care enough about it that I'm actually interested in really figuring out where we went wrong, and what the realistic least worst option available to us is.  You're the one that seems to be hesitant to make an judgment calls, and just spout platitudes, so out of the two of us, I would argue that you're the one less ready to act on the problem we're both perceiving.

[Admiral Yi]

Don't really see what the rich are getting for their money. 

carried interest, for example

The US has the highest corporate tax rate in the civilized world.  The US is unique in that it taxes income earned overseas (which presumably skews rich).  Congress a couple years ago passed a repeal of the Bush tax cuts on the highest bracket only.  Before that they passed Obamacare, which was half funded by a lifting of the Medicare payroll tax.

The taxes corporations actually pay are not necessarily correlated with headline rates.  Congress didn't repeal the Bush tax cuts; those cuts were due to sunset and what Congress actually did is selectively preserve some of them.  As someone who worked overseas, that is rarely a huge issue since most often the overseas rates are higher.

Anyways, I don't think Berkut's point is necessarily that "THE RICH" are some unified conspiracy that are systematically extracting benefits as a class. Rather particular monied interests are in a strong position to extract particularized or special treatment.  See carried interest, above.

So particular monied interests spent 100 billion in the last election cycle, and the only thing you can come up with is carried interest, which is what, 20 years old?

[DGuller]

It seems to me the American public should attempt to push for real reform of the political system (including the way it is funded).

The Bill of Rights gives us the means.  We can amend the Constitution using a convention of states and bypass Congress and the Feds altogether.  Of course this has never been done in the history of the nation but, you know, theoretically possible.

Yes, we have the procedural means.  The problem isn't procedural, the problem is with the people.

[Valmy]

So particular monied interests spent 100 billion in the last election cycle, and the only thing you can come up with is carried interest, which is what, 20 years old?

Really?  You don't see how, for example, Unions buying off Democratic politicians have corrupted politicians in those areas?  Not at all?  That does not happen?  They get nothing in return?

[Valmy]

Yes, we have the procedural means.  The problem isn't procedural, the problem is with the people.

What is your plan to get different people?

[Admiral Yi]

Really?  You don't see how, for example, Unions buying off Democratic politicians have corrupted politicians in those areas?  Not at all?  That does not happen?  They get nothing in return?

Conceded.  My mind was still stuck on the rich and corporations.

[DGuller]

Yes, we have the procedural means.  The problem isn't procedural, the problem is with the people.

What is your plan to get different people?

Good question.  I have no plan.  But you shouldn't point your finger at something that's not a problem, because you don't know how to fix something that is a problem.

[Valmy]

Good question.  I have no plan.  But you shouldn't point your finger at something that's not a problem, because you don't know how to fix something that is a problem.

I guess I don't understand the problem with the people.  We were just as shitty a hundred years ago when the system functioned much better.  In fact we were far worse.  So if the people have not gotten worse and the system has become more corrupt how can you point your finger at the people?

[DGuller]

Good question.  I have no plan.  But you shouldn't point your finger at something that's not a problem, because you don't know how to fix something that is a problem.

I guess I don't understand the problem with the people.  We were just as shitty a hundred years ago when the system functioned much better.  In fact we were far worse.  So if the people have not gotten worse and the system has become more corrupt how can you point your finger at the people?

Worse in what way?  Certainly not when it comes to partisanship, and tailoring your views on all issues to match the views of the party you favor more.  Look at presidential election maps from the beginning of 20th century to now.  Notice how they become incredibly more predictable as you get to 21st century?

I think that the brave new world of media is really damaging to democracy, ironically enough.  Media by its nature is extremely biased, in that it needs to report things that rile people up.  When you have much more of that media, you have much more of riling up.  Eventually you put people in echo chambers that way.

[The Minsky Moment]

So particular monied interests spent 100 billion in the last election cycle, and the only thing you can come up with is carried interest, which is what, 20 years old?

Check the meaning of the word "example"
I also don't see how the age matters.  It comes up every year a budget is to be passed.