Another US school shooter - Portland, this time

[Tamas]

I believe that there's a middle ground between "I have the right to carry a gun anytime, anywhere, and to use deadly force if I feel threatened in any way" and "no one should own a gun, ever."

(Actually, didn't post-colonial and wild west towns have much stricter rules about guns? E.g. having to keep your weapon in an arsenal or turning in your guns when you enter town?)

A lot of people seem to think that they need the protection, because they don't trust the state to protect them if need be (and I'm not talking about fringe nutjobs who arm themselves to ward off a Bushitler or Obamadolf rising and proclaiming the American Commie-Nazi Dictatorship).

Is there anything that can be done so that the average guy doesn't feel the need to have a gun and thus paving the way to sensible gun control?

IDK, basically, without a gun, you are pretty much at the mercy of criminals, because unless you are really highly trained, the odds of effectively protecting yourself are quite low. Now, in a lucky country the rule of law can really minimise the chance of you ever being attacked, but regardless, if it happens, you are fucked, and that's it.
And yeah I guess, if the criminals know they may come up against a gun they will just start carrying themselves, but that still means that he is risking (and you are getting) even odds, compared to the guaranteed success rate of him pulling a knife on unarmed you.

But anyways, I think this depends on what a given society is accustomed to. Take a country like UK or Hungary, liberalise gun laws overnight and you would probably have mayhem. Take the US, make gun laws more strict overnight, and what you are doing is pushing an arsenal worth of firearms into illegality, making law-abiding citizens into much more victims than they are in European states.

[Ideologue]

That's the most reasoned post Tamas has ever made, and I only kind of mean that as a backhanded compliment.

[Ideologue]

Anyway, the state obviously can't protect people (partly because of the stupid 4th amendment).  Remember that statistic about 1/5 women being sexually assaulted?  It's not because sexual assault is legal.

[Tamas]

One of the big issues with the poverty-stricken rural regions of Eastern Hungary is the growing pressure of petty crimes, where people doing subsistence farming (well, to supplement their wages/welfare/pension) are being basically terrorised by those scavenging on their stuff and property. These people are utterly defenceless and live in fear because they cannot have guns, and cannot really defend their property with legal means.

I cannot imagine laws allowing the defense of your property with even lethal weapons not helping with situations like that.

[Sheilbh]

I cannot imagine laws allowing the defense of your property with even lethal weapons not helping with situations like that.

But UK and the US have always had a right to self-defence and defence of property.

[Tamas]

I cannot imagine laws allowing the defense of your property with even lethal weapons not helping with situations like that.

But UK and the US have always had a right to self-defence and defence of property.

I just wanted that as an example that it is pretty easy to go too much the other way. And that there is/can be value in letting citizens have self-defense firearms

[Sheilbh]

I just wanted that as an example that it is pretty easy to go too much the other way. And that there is/can be value in letting citizens have self-defense firearms

Okay, yeah. I mean there's lots of reasons that some people should be able to have guns. In the UK farmers generally have guns for pest control - despite gun control I think there's still around 1.4 million weapons out there legally.

Though I'm not sure that in a situation like you describe in Hungary the best response would be to introduce guns.

[Ideologue]

You can't fight mounted archers without 'em.

[CountDeMoney]

(even ordinary applications of the Castle Doctrine do not seek to value or devalue human life)

Sure they do.

[Ed Anger]

Speaking of Cops, my bro's department is issuing AR-15's to all the officers. 

[Ideologue]

(even ordinary applications of the Castle Doctrine do not seek to value or devalue human life)

Sure they do.

Guns don't devalue human life.  America does.

[grumbler]

I just wanted that as an example that it is pretty easy to go too much the other way. And that there is/can be value in letting citizens have self-defense firearms

One of the problems is, of course, that these people who buy firearms for self-defense are kinda dumb.  They don't look at the total cost of ownership of a firearm.  I don't remember the exact stats, but they are something along the lines of
(1) you are three times more likely to get shot if you own a gun than if you do not
(2) your children are four times as likely to die of gun violence (including accidents) if you own a gun than if you do not
(3) you are twice as likely to be shot by your own firearm than to shoot a home invader.

The problem is that average people are not properly terrified of owning guns, because they don't know just how dumb it is without the proper training, maintenance, and storage.  That's not to say that guns don't defend some people some times, but mostly what "self-defense" does is give your kids the tools to accidentally off themselves (or your wife the tool to not-so-accidentally off you).

None of my points really addresses the kind of violence discussed in the OP, though, except in that firearms are romanticized in the US.

[CountDeMoney]

The problem is that average people are not properly terrified of owning guns, because they don't know just how dumb it is without the proper training, maintenance, and storage.  That's not to say that guns don't defend some people some times, but mostly what "self-defense" does is give your kids the tools to accidentally off themselves (or your wife the tool to not-so-accidentally off you).

It's easier to rationalize fear of The Government or The Black Man.

[derspiess]

Speaking of Cops, my bro's department is issuing AR-15's to all the officers. 

Hope they do it the right way and issue one to each officer.  I heard of one county or department issuing one per car, so two partners have to share one.  Must be fun trying to aim a rifle zeroed for someone else.

[jimmy olsen]

That's OK, Indiana did one better in 2012:  Mitch Daniels allowed an amendment to the Castle Doctrine law, so residents are now permitted to use deadly force against police officers if they feel they are subject to an "unlawful intrusion."  Supported by the NRA, of course.

Unnecessary--  cops never raid the wrong house.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LoCOXYiYM8g

The suspect is hatless, repeat, hatless

Officer McBain seems to have things under control

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7vyANa71gvU