The Islamic State in Iraq and the Levant Megathread

Started by Tamas, June 10, 2014, 07:37:01 AM

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mongers

Quote from: OttoVonBismarck on February 03, 2015, 08:26:52 PM
Yeah, AQ actually cited the same 13th century Islamic judge as ISIS does in justifying killing other Muslims. Namely, his rulings could be interpreted to say that even a Muslim of the same sect as you that simply practices Islam slightly differently can be declared a non-Muslim and thus killing them is not a sin. But AQ never really seemed to be vigorous about enforcing that like ISIS has. To some degree I suspect that's because AQ was okay with people signing up from different schools of Islamic thought as long as they were willing to toe AQ's ideology in the here and now. ISIS on the other hand seems to be much more about kill first ask questions later, at least at times. ISIS is full of contradictions though, most of the Western recruits are so ignorant of Islam that many of them who have returned and been asked various things have revealed extreme ignorance about basic Islamic thought. According to a Daily Beast article some of them literally read "Islam for Dummies" as preparation for their trip to Syria/Iraq to join ISIS. You would think those guys would be as ill prepared to answer a doctrine quiz as those unfortunate Shia truck drivers, but apparently ISIS prizes Western fighters enough not to care.

I've heard it said that AQ had an idealogical view, that included a vision of the future, of how the world should be ordered, in their view a progressive forward movement. Obviously I'm in no way defending that or giving it any credence, but mention it to contrast it with what IS is attempting.

The suggestion is AQ has lost out to IS, which is focused on one goal, returning the world to a conservative, entirely backwards looking Islamic State, one solely based on their Wahabist view of Islamic law and prophecy. Everyone who in anyway opposes this or doesn't support it, is to be destroyed, because in doing that they also hoped to bring the world to a crisis, a final eschatological battle, where they and God triumph over everyone.

Hence it's attraction to simpletons or those who only have hatred left in their hearts or those who seek to manipulate it for their own hidden aims. It's common to find these types of characters within cults and it's why I describe IS as a suicide death cult.
"We have it in our power to begin the world over again"

Sheilbh

Quote from: mongers on February 03, 2015, 09:35:18 PM
The suggestion is AQ has lost out to IS, which is focused on one goal, returning the world to a conservative, entirely backwards looking Islamic State, one solely based on their Wahabist view of Islamic law and prophecy. Everyone who in anyway opposes this or doesn't support it, is to be destroyed, because in doing that they also hoped to bring the world to a crisis, a final eschatological battle, where they and God triumph over everyone.
I don't think there's any substantial difference between this and the al-Qaeda vision though. The difference is in the strategic approach they're taking.
Let's bomb Russia!

mongers

Quote from: Sheilbh on February 03, 2015, 09:52:38 PM
Quote from: mongers on February 03, 2015, 09:35:18 PM
The suggestion is AQ has lost out to IS, which is focused on one goal, returning the world to a conservative, entirely backwards looking Islamic State, one solely based on their Wahabist view of Islamic law and prophecy. Everyone who in anyway opposes this or doesn't support it, is to be destroyed, because in doing that they also hoped to bring the world to a crisis, a final eschatological battle, where they and God triumph over everyone.
I don't think there's any substantial difference between this and the al-Qaeda vision though. The difference is in the strategic approach they're taking.

I see quite a difference, AQ wanted the US and the West out of the Middle East whereas IS wants to bring the world down in flames.

"We have it in our power to begin the world over again"

Sheilbh

Al-Qaeda want everything you've ascribed to ISIS. The difference has been in approach. Al-Qaeda were classic terrorists in the way that they wanted to use propaganda of the deed and large-scale attacks like 9/11 aimed at the West to force the West out of the Middle East (this also perhaps tied into Bin Laden's preference for 'martyrdom' attacks). At the same time they wanted to kill Americans in Afghanistan and Iraq for the same reason. But the goal from there was to overthrow Saudi, establish a Caliphate in Arabia and Bin Laden's often repeated the idea that then the 'war between belief and disbelief would begin'.

ISIS have shifted that. They've moved the focus to Iraq and Syria - not Saudi. Perhaps just because they're in a more diverse area than Afghanistan or Sudan that means they've placed even greater emphasis on takfirism (that all Muslims who don't practice and follow the laws as they view are non-believers - again something al-Qaeda believed in). They've 'established a Caliphate', prior to taking Arabia and they're wanting to hold and expand that - this is part of the foreign fighters issue there are groups popping up all over the place declaring allegiance to ISIS, just like they used to to al-Qaeda. North Africa is particularly vulnerable/has particularly high numbers of fighters going to and returning from Syria. Then, no doubt, the war between belief and disbelief would begin.

The conflict between the two is over the strategy to the same end game and, increasingly, over ownership of fundamentally the same jihadi ideology.
Let's bomb Russia!

Jacob

I'd expect the reason that they're willing to take ignorant Westerners who want to fight is that the Westerners essentially say "we know little, teach us the truth!" They're willing - at least in theory - to adapt the creed the ISIL teaches them.

Nearby Muslims who follow different schools (or are Shia) belong to factions perceived as rivals and wrong. They're playing for the wrong team, while the Westerners are prospects coming up from the junior leagues to join the team.

OttoVonBismarck

I think instead of the focus on religion (which is important) movements like ISIS are best viewed in the vein of fascism. There is an ethos to ISIS, some of its members even know it/believe it (many are just completely stupid guys who are out to kill people and make money--the kind of thug that heavily populated the SA in the early Nazi days) but ISIS is really about establishing a fascist state. The core of German fascism for example started at least from a place where there was broad agreement, to be honest even today there are Germans who say the same stuff: Germany should be for Germans and Germany and the German people should be strong. In a time of extreme national weakness, this message really resonates. Once you buy into what isn't intrinsically evil/unreasonable, you can easily be lead down a dark path. If Germany must be strong, and you accept that democratic governments are weak, you accept an autocrat. If Germany must be strong, and strong countries need more land, you accept military belligerence and annexations. You are now pretty far along into the worst of Germany's crimes in WWII and we haven't even talked about the crazed Nazi ideology, some of which had support broadly and some of which people just kind of paid lip service to.

Islamic fascists start from a position that "true Islam" must be protected, and must be strong. It does not help that the Middle East and the Arab world in general has long been winner take all. Even moderate forces have a very hard time understanding society doesn't have to be that way. The Muslim Brotherhood in Egypt started off at least vaguely moderate, but once in power they just couldn't help themselves--they had to start restructuring Egyptian law and government so they would never lose power. This winner take all concept makes it as easy, if not easier, for Muslims predisposed to a certain way of thinking to buy into a concept of Islamic fascism. It's easy to view democracy as incompatible with true Islamic beliefs being strong and being protected. In Democratic countries Islam is disrespected, the Prophet is a punch line, apostates and heretics are allowed to flourish unrestrained. Shi'a are allowed, if they win elections, to have power over Sunni. It's very easy if you buy into this core concept of "true Islam" and the need to protect it, that you reject democratic ideals and democracy itself.

If you can take that step, it's not all that hard to believe that a vision of land conquest and formation of a "Caliphate" is a necessary step. Some will take further steps and accept the necessity or rightness of burning people alive, mass murdering opponents and etc. The winner take all nature of the Arab world being so opposed to democratic ideals means there are a lot of Muslims there who are somewhat ripe to buy into a type of Islamic fascism. Iran practices a form of it, the whole basis of their government is that an undemocratic clerical elite has to exist above the normal political process precisely because otherwise Islam would be pushed to the way side. Hitler justified it with nationalism, Islamic fascists justify it with religion. Just like Hitler/Berlusconi/Franco weren't always buddy buddy, so too not all Islamic fascists support Islamic State.

The largest number are conservative Muslims who are not violent, but do believe in at least the core truth--that you need a "strong and proper" society, which means an autocracy, to keep people following the path of righteousness. When that's a prevalent belief, you'll find lots of people in that larger group who may at least passively support extreme violence. Within that larger group you find people willing to actually commit said violence.

Martinus

Quote from: Admiral Yi on February 03, 2015, 07:11:16 PM
On CNN the reporter said the protest in Amman over the burning was "in the hundreds," which is perhaps not that encouraging.

Still, CNN commentators are pointing out this is probably the first time people in Middle East are actually protesting against ISIS (as opposed to protesting against America/the West). So if this galvanises them to get their shit together, it may just be the turning point.

Ancient Demon

#2212
Quote from: Martinus on February 04, 2015, 01:39:07 AM
protesting against ISIS (as opposed to protesting against America/the West).

This isn't necessarily opposed. Many people are against ISIS because the US or Israel is believed to be secretly backing them in order to divide the Muslim world.

Ancient Demon, formerly known as Zagys.

CountDeMoney

Quote from: Ancient Demon on February 04, 2015, 02:41:39 AM
Many people are against ISIS because the US or Israel is believed to be secretly backing them in order to divide the Muslim world.

Oh, those sinister and sneaky Jews.  Is there anything they can't do?

CountDeMoney

Jordan goes 2-for-2 after the flagrant foul.

QuoteJordan Executes Prisoners After ISIS Video of Pilot's Death
by ROD NORDLAND and RANYA KADRIFEB. 3, 2015
NEW YORK TIMES

AMMAN, Jordan — When relatives learned Tuesday night that the Islamic State had released a video showing the death of a Jordanian fighter pilot, First Lt. Moaz al-Kasasbeh, they tried to keep it from his mother, Issaf, and his wife, Anwar. They switched off the television and tried to wrest a smartphone out of his wife's hand, but she had already seen a mobile news bulletin.

Anwar ran crying into the street, calling her husband's name and saying, "Please, God, let it not be true." Issaf fell to the floor screaming, pulled her head scarf off and started tearing at her hair.

That was even before they knew how he had been killed. No one dared let them know right away that Lieutenant Kasasbeh's tormentors had apparently burned him alive inside a cage, a killing that was soon described as the most brutal in the group's bloody history.

Jordan responded rapidly, executing Sajida al-Rishawi, who was convicted after attempting a suicide bombing, and Ziad al-Karbouli, a top lieutenant of Al Qaeda in Iraq, before dawn on Wednesday, according to the official news agency Petra.

On Tuesday, Anwar Kasasbeh had been laughing at the memory of her husband's delight when he discovered that her family kept rabbits in their home. After they married, her parents gave them the rabbits to take care of.

"It was so funny, he was so happy about those rabbits," Anwar told a visiting reporter about her 26-year-old husband. "He told me how he always wanted rabbits."

The video, with its references to the Islamic State's punishment of nations like Jordan that joined the American-led coalition against it, appeared to be an attempt to cow the Arab nations and other countries that have agreed to battle the militants in Syria. So far, it appeared to have had the opposite effect in Jordan, which suggested its resolve had been stiffened. But the capture of the pilot had already hurt the coalition, with the United Arab Emirates suspending its own airstrikes in December and demanding that the group improve its search and rescue efforts for captured members.

The release of the video came after weeks of growing anxiety in Jordan as the country's leaders tried desperately to win the release of Lieutenant Kasasbeh, a member of an important tribe and the first fighter for the coalition bombing the Islamic State to be captured. Their attempts became more complicated late last month when the Islamic State, also called ISIS or ISIL, suddenly entangled the pilot's fate with that of a Japanese man it held hostage, demanding that Jordan release Ms. Rishawi in exchange for him.

If Jordan failed to do so by last Thursday, they said, Lieutenant Kasasbeh would be killed. Jordanian officials expressed willingness to bargain, a major concession to the militants, but refused to release Ms. Rishawi until they received proof that the pilot was alive.

On Tuesday, Jordanian officials said they learned that the pilot had actually been killed on Jan. 3, suggesting that their caution had been justifiable. They did not, however, explain where they got the information.

Even by Islamic State standards, the latest propaganda video was particularly gruesome. The footage alternated images of the pilot while he was alive with segments showing the rubble of destroyed buildings and the burned bodies of Syrians allegedly killed in coalition airstrikes. Islamic State members took to Twitter to applaud the pilot's death, calling it an eye for an eye.

At the end of the 22-minute video, an Islamic State fighter set a powder fuse alight as Lieutenant Kasasbeh watched, his clothes drenched in fuel. The flames raced into the cage and engulfed him. The camera lingered, showing close-ups of his agony, before concluding with pictures of what the Islamic State claimed were other Jordanian pilots and an offer of a reward of 100 gold coins for whoever killed one of them. (American officials said they were trying to authenticate the video.)

The Jordanian military responded swiftly. "The blood of our hero martyr, Moaz Kasasbeh, will not go for nothing," said Mamdouh al-Ameri, a spokesman for the Jordanian military. "And the revenge will be equal to what happened to Jordan."

Within hours, a convoy was seen leaving the women's prison in Jordan, presumably taking Ms. Rishawi to the men's prison an hour outside Amman where executions are carried out, normally by hanging.

Both prisoners had already been sentenced to death for terrorism offenses. Mr. Karbouli was accused as one of the planners of the 2005 hotel bombings in Amman that killed more than 57 people; Ms. Rishawi was the only one of four suicide bombers in that attack whose explosive vest failed to detonate. Both were affiliated with Al Qaeda in Iraq, which became the present-day Islamic State.

Jordan and the United Arab Emirates are among several Arab countries taking part in American-led air raids against Islamic State positions in Syria. Two other Arab states, plus Iraq, are members of the coalition in other capacities.

Lieutenant Kasasbeh was said to have been shot down in his F-16 fighter bomber on Dec. 24 during an air operation against Islamic State positions not far from the militants' stronghold of Raqqa in northern Syria.

He cut a dashing figure in uniform, with green eyes, black hair and a slim build, and he had a significant social media following.

His capture transfixed the nation, which suddenly saw photos of the lieutenant being dragged by militants out of a swamp where he had apparently crashed.

Weeks before the deadly attack on the satirical newspaper Charlie Hebdo in France prompted refrains of "Je Suis Charlie," Jordan's Queen Rania started a campaign on Instagram called "We Are All Moaz."

Lieutenant Kasasbeh's captivity at first aroused anti-coalition sentiment among many in Jordan, but public opinion shifted dramatically as the Islamic State issued videos showing what it said were the beheadings of two Japanese hostages, including the one the militants had wanted to trade. By last week, critics of the coalition and the government had come under fire for trying to turn the pilot's plight to political advantage.

For someone in the elite forefront of Jordan's air force — its 60 or more F-16s are its most important aircraft — Lieutenant Kasasbeh did not show any early interest in the military or in flying, his family said.

"It was just by happenstance," his father, Safi Youssef Al-Kasasbeh, said Sunday. During his last year in high school, his son, the fourth of eight children and the third son, had been planning to go to medical school in Russia, as his mother had long encouraged. But he saw a notice in a Jordanian newspaper inviting candidates to see if they qualified for the air force, and, on a lark, Lieutenant Kasasbeh applied for what would be a prestigious position.

To everyone's surprise, he was chosen over hundreds of other applicants and went straight to flight school instead of to college. He was commissioned as an air force officer in 2009.

His eldest brother, Jawad Safi al-Kasasbeh, an engineer seven years older than Moaz, took his captivity particularly hard. Twice, Jawad had saved his younger brother's life when he was a small child: once when Moaz accidentally started a fire, and another time when he nearly stuck a nail in an electric socket.

"Now, when he really needs me, I can't do anything," Jawad said. "I was the one who was supposed to support him, to be there for him."

Jawad even helped introduce him to his future wife, Anwar, the sister of Jawad's best friend. The couple had moved into an apartment of their own, in the family's hometown, Al Karak, so Moaz could be close to his parents, instead of near the air base a couple hours' drive away. Moaz often visited his parents on days off, and the last time Jawad saw him, five days before he was captured, he had been taking his father's car to Amman for repair.

Far from the speed-addict image of the fighter pilot, his family said, Moaz was austere in his personal habits. His car was a nine-year-old Mitsubishi Lancer, and he rarely wore jeans, preferring suits when he was not in uniform.

His brothers and his parents agreed that Lieutenant Kasasbeh had always been the favored son, the one closest to the parents among the eight siblings. He usually got his own way with his father, but not always.

Like Anwar, Jawad recalled how much his brother had wanted a pet rabbit and how he had badgered their father, who said they had no place to put it. So Moaz built an enclosure in the yard and asked again. When his father said they had no food for the animal, Moaz gathered rabbit food and stocked the enclosure. Still no. So he got his baby sister and put her there, saying, "See, she's my rabbit now."

Tears came to Jawad's eyes as he recalled that story. Before she learned of her husband's death, Anwar, his wife, worried that he would be upset if he returned home to learn that, distracted by concern over his plight, no one had taken care of the rabbits, and they had escaped.

CountDeMoney

UAEWTF

QuoteUnited Arab Emirates, Key U.S. Ally in ISIS Effort, Disengaged in December
By HELENE COOPERFEB. 3, 2015

WASHINGTON — The United Arab Emirates, a crucial Arab ally in the American-led coalition against the Islamic State, suspended airstrikes against the Sunni extremist group in December, citing fears for its pilots' safety after a Jordanian pilot was captured and who the extremists said had been burned to death, United States officials said Tuesday.

The United Arab Emirates are demanding that the Pentagon improve its search-and-rescue efforts, including the use of V-22 Osprey tilt-rotor aircraft, in northern Iraq, closer to the battleground, instead of basing the missions in Kuwait, administration officials said. The country's pilots will not rejoin the fight until the Ospreys, which take off and land like helicopters but fly like planes, are put in place in northern Iraq.

The United Arab Emirates notified the United States Central Command that they were suspending flights, administration officials said, after First Lt. Moaz al-Kasasbeh of the Jordanian Air Force was captured when his plane went down near Raqqa, Syria. A senior American military official said Islamic State militants "grabbed" Lieutenant Kasasbeh "within just a few minutes." He added, "There was no time for us to engage."

But United Arab Emirates officials questioned the American military about whether rescue teams would have been able to reach Lieutenant Kasasbeh even if there had been more time to do so, administration officials said.

In a blunt exchange last week in Abu Dhabi, the United Arab Emirates' foreign minister, Sheikh Abdullah bin Zayed bin Sultan Al Nahyan, asked Barbara Leaf, the new American ambassador, why Central Command, in his country's view, had not put proper assets in northern Iraq for rescuing downed pilots, a senior administration official said.

"He let her have it over this," the official said, speaking on the condition of anonymity because he was not authorized to speak publicly on the issue. It was Ms. Leaf's first courtesy call on the foreign minister.

The exchange followed a month of disputes between American military officials and their counterparts in the United Arab Emirates, who have also expressed concern that the United States has allowed Iran to play a growing role in the fight against the Islamic State, also known as ISIS and ISIL.

A spokesman with Central Command declined to comment.

The divide between the United States and the United Arab Emirates is significant because the country has been the United States' most stalwart Arab ally in the fight against the Islamic State. The country, a collection of oil-rich principalities, conducted more missions in the beginning of the air war than any other member of the international coalition. Its collection of F-16s attacked the militants in northern Iraq and Syria from the Al Dhafra air base in the United Arab Emirates.

The country was one of the first to join the coalition. In early September, even before President Obama had recruited the first members at a NATO summit meeting in Wales, Yousef Al Otaiba, the United Arab Emirates' ambassador to the United States, issued a statement that his country stood ready to join the fight.

For the United States, keeping the United Arab Emirates on board is key; Mr. Obama has insisted that the United States will not fight the Islamic State without help from Sunni Arabs. The White House is keen to present the coalition as one that includes moderate countries in the region.

The relationship with the United Arab Emirates has become especially important as United States relations with other Muslim allies like Turkey, Egypt and Saudi Arabia have grown tense. Such allies have defended their roles in the campaign despite criticism at home.

It was unclear Tuesday why the American military had not been able to put the requested rescue assets in northern Iraq. After the Islamic State released the video of what it said was the Jordanian pilot's execution Tuesday, administration officials said Mr. Obama had ordered national security officials and the intelligence community to devote its resources to locating other hostages held by the Islamic State.

mongers

"We have it in our power to begin the world over again"

OttoVonBismarck

From what I'm hearing the pilot's father (who has long been publicly critical of Jordanian involvement in this campaign against ISIS) was happy with the two jihadists being executed and wanted further revenge against ISIS. Considering King Abdullah was pretty committed I'm not sure there was ever any real chance of Jordan withdrawing from the coalition, but there's almost no chance of that now. Even Jordanians dubious about the concept of their pilots bombing people who are fighting Assad are now calling for blood.

Jordan doesn't have a lot of power projection capability, but their intelligence and special forces are known for being fairly decent and some of their intelligence forces are known for being particularly brutal. I would not be surprised if some sort of attack is being planned somewhere by Jordan.

mongers

Quote from: OttoVonBismarck on February 04, 2015, 09:55:25 AM
From what I'm hearing the pilot's father (who has long been publicly critical of Jordanian involvement in this campaign against ISIS) was happy with the two jihadists being executed and wanted further revenge against ISIS. Considering King Abdullah was pretty committed I'm not sure there was ever any real chance of Jordan withdrawing from the coalition, but there's almost no chance of that now. Even Jordanians dubious about the concept of their pilots bombing people who are fighting Assad are now calling for blood.

Jordan doesn't have a lot of power projection capability, but their intelligence and special forces are known for being fairly decent and some of their intelligence forces are known for being particularly brutal. I would not be surprised if some sort of attack is being planned somewhere by Jordan.

Yes did the young king at some stage command their special forces?

I think the brutality effective or not, of some of their security forces is a hang over from British rule?

Besides whatever IS have 'planned' for the Arab world, I'd guess Jordan would be the next or 2nd next country they'd try and destabilise.
"We have it in our power to begin the world over again"

KRonn

Seems that Jordan is expected to really take up this fight now, get more involved, but I doubt it'l lbe easy for them. In Jordan it's very fractious and tribal from what I understand, so they're not all going to work together or support going after ISIL even if they disagree with ISIL. Plus I think some feel it's the US's and West's war, which just makes me shake my head. These are they're own extremists who have been in the region for decades and longer and they're taking great advantage to gain power via the civil wars and dissent going on in the region.

I think also that another good possibility is that ISIL has its sights on Jordan and wants a reason to widen the war. So part of reason for killing the pilot is to sow more unrest in Jordan among the disparate groups, which could work to weaken the government.  I think the King of Jordan is in a difficult spot since even though people are outraged at the murder of the pilot the country is so fractious that it's probably very difficult/divisive to take more action than what they've already done with air strikes. Plus Jordan isn't a wealthy oil nation and lacks resources, money and manpower unless allied with others in the region.