The Islamic State in Iraq and the Levant Megathread

Started by Tamas, June 10, 2014, 07:37:01 AM

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garbon

So when will Languish mature and realize no one wins when Viking starts talking about religion?
"I've never been quite sure what the point of a eunuch is, if truth be told. It seems to me they're only men with the useful bits cut off."
I drank because I wanted to drown my sorrows, but now the damned things have learned to swim.

Jacob

Quote from: garbon on October 10, 2014, 09:15:42 AM
So when will Languish mature and realize no one wins when Viking starts talking about religion?

I think we all know that. It's just that sometimes people engage in irrational counter productive behaviour that leads to bad outcomes.

Tamas

Quote from: garbon on October 10, 2014, 09:15:42 AM
So when will Languish mature and realize no one wins when Viking starts talking about religion?

I tend to agree with him.

HVC

Quote from: Tamas on October 10, 2014, 09:52:56 AM
Quote from: garbon on October 10, 2014, 09:15:42 AM
So when will Languish mature and realize no one wins when Viking starts talking about religion?

I tend to agree with him.
yes, but you also put gasoline in your Diesel engine, so that's a point againt both of you :D
Being lazy is bad; unless you still get what you want, then it's called "patience".
Hubris must be punished. Severely.

Baron von Schtinkenbutt

Quote from: grumbler on October 09, 2014, 09:12:55 PM
Defenestration.

My wife's favorite historical event ever is the Defenestration of Prague.  That was one way I knew she was a keeper. :wub:

Baron von Schtinkenbutt

Quote from: Viking on October 10, 2014, 09:14:23 AM
You can't say that Abu-Bakr-Al-Baghdadi has somehow misunderstood Islam or has a wrong interpretation of it. This is no such thing as a correct understanding of Islam and there is no such thing as a correct interpretation. It's all fiction.

Then the label "Islam" is meaningless.  A label must have a defined set of characteristics, a definition.  If the definition is fungible, the label is worthless.

Eddie Teach

My favorite defenestration was in one of the opening scenes in Cloud Atlas, where Tom Hanks(playing a working class British writer) hurls a critic off a penthouse balcony during a party. I actually enjoyed the movie, but nothing after came close to that.
To sleep, perchance to dream. But in that sleep of death, what dreams may come?

Barrister

Quote from: Baron von Schtinkenbutt on October 10, 2014, 10:29:01 AM
Quote from: grumbler on October 09, 2014, 09:12:55 PM
Defenestration.

My wife's favorite historical event ever is the Defenestration of Prague.  That was one way I knew she was a keeper. :wub:

I was very excited when, in taking a tour of Prague Castle, they mentioned that this is where the Defenestration had occurred.  :w00t:
Posts here are my own private opinions.  I do not speak for my employer.

CountDeMoney

Quote from: Viking on October 10, 2014, 09:14:23 AM
You can't say that Abu-Bakr-Al-Baghdadi has somehow misunderstood Islam or has a wrong interpretation of it. This is no such thing as a correct understanding of Islam and there is no such thing as a correct interpretation. It's all fiction.

There is no correct interpretation, because Islam has never had a Pope, a Reformation or an Age of Reason.  These three factors contribute to a maturation of religion as an institution;  unified doctrine, populist reforms and movements of thought that separate it from government.

You're just going to have to live with the fact that, while you may consider religion a fiction, the vast majority of the globe does not.  So you're just going to have to wait for religions--and the religious--to sort things out for themselves.

garbon

Quote from: CountDeMoney on October 10, 2014, 11:07:07 AM
Quote from: Viking on October 10, 2014, 09:14:23 AM
You can't say that Abu-Bakr-Al-Baghdadi has somehow misunderstood Islam or has a wrong interpretation of it. This is no such thing as a correct understanding of Islam and there is no such thing as a correct interpretation. It's all fiction.

There is no correct interpretation, because Islam has never had a Pope, a Reformation or an Age of Reason.  These three factors contribute to a maturation of religion as an institution;  unified doctrine, populist reforms and movements of thought that separate it from government.

You're just going to have to live with the fact that, while you may consider religion a fiction, the vast majority of the globe does not.  So you're just going to have to wait for religions--and the religious--to sort things out for themselves.

I'm not sure I follow. After all, all the various branches of Christianity have their own interpretations, no?

Or is this some sort of plug that those three factors helped craft the correct interpretation that the Catholic Church has today?
"I've never been quite sure what the point of a eunuch is, if truth be told. It seems to me they're only men with the useful bits cut off."
I drank because I wanted to drown my sorrows, but now the damned things have learned to swim.

Barrister

Quote from: garbon on October 10, 2014, 11:24:31 AM
Quote from: CountDeMoney on October 10, 2014, 11:07:07 AM
Quote from: Viking on October 10, 2014, 09:14:23 AM
You can't say that Abu-Bakr-Al-Baghdadi has somehow misunderstood Islam or has a wrong interpretation of it. This is no such thing as a correct understanding of Islam and there is no such thing as a correct interpretation. It's all fiction.

There is no correct interpretation, because Islam has never had a Pope, a Reformation or an Age of Reason.  These three factors contribute to a maturation of religion as an institution;  unified doctrine, populist reforms and movements of thought that separate it from government.

You're just going to have to live with the fact that, while you may consider religion a fiction, the vast majority of the globe does not.  So you're just going to have to wait for religions--and the religious--to sort things out for themselves.

I'm not sure I follow. After all, all the various branches of Christianity have their own interpretations, no?

Or is this some sort of plug that those three factors helped craft the correct interpretation that the Catholic Church has today?

That's my take on Count's post. <_<
Posts here are my own private opinions.  I do not speak for my employer.

Viking

Quote from: Baron von Schtinkenbutt on October 10, 2014, 10:32:34 AM
Quote from: Viking on October 10, 2014, 09:14:23 AM
You can't say that Abu-Bakr-Al-Baghdadi has somehow misunderstood Islam or has a wrong interpretation of it. This is no such thing as a correct understanding of Islam and there is no such thing as a correct interpretation. It's all fiction.

Then the label "Islam" is meaningless.  A label must have a defined set of characteristics, a definition.  If the definition is fungible, the label is worthless.

No, it isn't a fully meaningless term. It's a socially constructed one. And, like all social constructs it has conventions, just like red lights mean stop and green lights mean go or that octopus refers to a certain kind of 8 limned cephalapod but doesn't refer to ketchup.

Just because god doesn't exist that doesn't mean the religion can't have a name or any form of cohesive concepts. Islam does, it has a revaluation, documents which explain that revelation, documents which list the life of the revealer and it has it's own standard for what a Muslim is.

It's not worthless, it's quite useful to discriminate between the various sets of untrue beliefs a person might hold.

First Maxim - "There are only two amounts, too few and enough."
First Corollary - "You cannot have too many soldiers, only too few supplies."
Second Maxim - "Be willing to exchange a bad idea for a good one."
Second Corollary - "You can only be wrong or agree with me."

A terrorist which starts a slaughter quoting Locke, Burke and Mill has completely missed the point.
The fact remains that the only person or group to applaud the Norway massacre are random Islamists.

Viking

Quote from: CountDeMoney on October 10, 2014, 11:07:07 AM
Quote from: Viking on October 10, 2014, 09:14:23 AM
You can't say that Abu-Bakr-Al-Baghdadi has somehow misunderstood Islam or has a wrong interpretation of it. This is no such thing as a correct understanding of Islam and there is no such thing as a correct interpretation. It's all fiction.

There is no correct interpretation, because Islam has never had a Pope, a Reformation or an Age of Reason.  These three factors contribute to a maturation of religion as an institution;  unified doctrine, populist reforms and movements of thought that separate it from government.

You're just going to have to live with the fact that, while you may consider religion a fiction, the vast majority of the globe does not.  So you're just going to have to wait for religions--and the religious--to sort things out for themselves.

Islam did have a Calif, the Ulema, the Hadith and the Shiites in their various versions each have their own Imam with his own Apostolic succession (from the prophet) each with their own special ability to correctly interpret the Koran. Each Islamic polity certainly did have it's own dogma with it's own correct interpretations and institutions.

The reason Islam never had a pope is because the Calif or Emir was his own pope. Islam has had no squeamishness in persecuting Alawites ,Alewis, Shiites, Sunnis, Ismailis and Ahmadis.
First Maxim - "There are only two amounts, too few and enough."
First Corollary - "You cannot have too many soldiers, only too few supplies."
Second Maxim - "Be willing to exchange a bad idea for a good one."
Second Corollary - "You can only be wrong or agree with me."

A terrorist which starts a slaughter quoting Locke, Burke and Mill has completely missed the point.
The fact remains that the only person or group to applaud the Norway massacre are random Islamists.

garbon

Quote from: Jacob on October 10, 2014, 09:47:15 AM
Quote from: garbon on October 10, 2014, 09:15:42 AM
So when will Languish mature and realize no one wins when Viking starts talking about religion?

I think we all know that. It's just that sometimes people engage in irrational counter productive behaviour that leads to bad outcomes.

People should cut that shit out, yo.
"I've never been quite sure what the point of a eunuch is, if truth be told. It seems to me they're only men with the useful bits cut off."
I drank because I wanted to drown my sorrows, but now the damned things have learned to swim.

CountDeMoney

Quote from: garbon on October 10, 2014, 11:24:31 AM
I'm not sure I follow. After all, all the various branches of Christianity have their own interpretations, no?

I really don't see much ecclesiastical variation between, say, Baptist and Methodist and Episcopalian, do you?  They're not calling each other heretics or apostates.

QuoteOr is this some sort of plug that those three factors helped craft the correct interpretation that the Catholic Church has today?

I'm talking about the institutionalization and codification of interpretation through the historical stages necessary in turning a church from one that fields an army and lobs off heads into a relatively benevolent aspect of a society.   

And before you and all the Euroweenies with hangups over religion freak the fuck out like they always do, Rome may have a problem with your sex life, but it's not like the local bishop is going to send out the soldiers to arrest you, hold an ecclesiastical trial and burn you at the stake any time soon.