The Islamic State in Iraq and the Levant Megathread

[garbon]

So when will Languish mature and realize no one wins when Viking starts talking about religion?

[Jacob]

So when will Languish mature and realize no one wins when Viking starts talking about religion?

I think we all know that. It's just that sometimes people engage in irrational counter productive behaviour that leads to bad outcomes.

[Tamas]

So when will Languish mature and realize no one wins when Viking starts talking about religion?

I tend to agree with him.

[HVC]

So when will Languish mature and realize no one wins when Viking starts talking about religion?

I tend to agree with him.

yes, but you also put gasoline in your Diesel engine, so that's a point againt both of you

[Baron von Schtinkenbutt]

Defenestration.

My wife's favorite historical event ever is the Defenestration of Prague.  That was one way I knew she was a keeper.

[Baron von Schtinkenbutt]

You can't say that Abu-Bakr-Al-Baghdadi has somehow misunderstood Islam or has a wrong interpretation of it. This is no such thing as a correct understanding of Islam and there is no such thing as a correct interpretation. It's all fiction.

Then the label "Islam" is meaningless.  A label must have a defined set of characteristics, a definition.  If the definition is fungible, the label is worthless.

[Eddie Teach]

My favorite defenestration was in one of the opening scenes in Cloud Atlas, where Tom Hanks(playing a working class British writer) hurls a critic off a penthouse balcony during a party. I actually enjoyed the movie, but nothing after came close to that.

[Barrister]

Defenestration.

My wife's favorite historical event ever is the Defenestration of Prague.  That was one way I knew she was a keeper.

I was very excited when, in taking a tour of Prague Castle, they mentioned that this is where the Defenestration had occurred. 

[CountDeMoney]

You can't say that Abu-Bakr-Al-Baghdadi has somehow misunderstood Islam or has a wrong interpretation of it. This is no such thing as a correct understanding of Islam and there is no such thing as a correct interpretation. It's all fiction.

There is no correct interpretation, because Islam has never had a Pope, a Reformation or an Age of Reason.  These three factors contribute to a maturation of religion as an institution;  unified doctrine, populist reforms and movements of thought that separate it from government.

You're just going to have to live with the fact that, while you may consider religion a fiction, the vast majority of the globe does not.  So you're just going to have to wait for religions--and the religious--to sort things out for themselves.

[garbon]

You can't say that Abu-Bakr-Al-Baghdadi has somehow misunderstood Islam or has a wrong interpretation of it. This is no such thing as a correct understanding of Islam and there is no such thing as a correct interpretation. It's all fiction.

There is no correct interpretation, because Islam has never had a Pope, a Reformation or an Age of Reason.  These three factors contribute to a maturation of religion as an institution;  unified doctrine, populist reforms and movements of thought that separate it from government.

You're just going to have to live with the fact that, while you may consider religion a fiction, the vast majority of the globe does not.  So you're just going to have to wait for religions--and the religious--to sort things out for themselves.

I'm not sure I follow. After all, all the various branches of Christianity have their own interpretations, no?

Or is this some sort of plug that those three factors helped craft the correct interpretation that the Catholic Church has today?

[Barrister]

You can't say that Abu-Bakr-Al-Baghdadi has somehow misunderstood Islam or has a wrong interpretation of it. This is no such thing as a correct understanding of Islam and there is no such thing as a correct interpretation. It's all fiction.

There is no correct interpretation, because Islam has never had a Pope, a Reformation or an Age of Reason.  These three factors contribute to a maturation of religion as an institution;  unified doctrine, populist reforms and movements of thought that separate it from government.

You're just going to have to live with the fact that, while you may consider religion a fiction, the vast majority of the globe does not.  So you're just going to have to wait for religions--and the religious--to sort things out for themselves.

I'm not sure I follow. After all, all the various branches of Christianity have their own interpretations, no?

Or is this some sort of plug that those three factors helped craft the correct interpretation that the Catholic Church has today?

That's my take on Count's post.

[Viking]

You can't say that Abu-Bakr-Al-Baghdadi has somehow misunderstood Islam or has a wrong interpretation of it. This is no such thing as a correct understanding of Islam and there is no such thing as a correct interpretation. It's all fiction.

Then the label "Islam" is meaningless.  A label must have a defined set of characteristics, a definition.  If the definition is fungible, the label is worthless.

No, it isn't a fully meaningless term. It's a socially constructed one. And, like all social constructs it has conventions, just like red lights mean stop and green lights mean go or that octopus refers to a certain kind of 8 limned cephalapod but doesn't refer to ketchup.

Just because god doesn't exist that doesn't mean the religion can't have a name or any form of cohesive concepts. Islam does, it has a revaluation, documents which explain that revelation, documents which list the life of the revealer and it has it's own standard for what a Muslim is.

It's not worthless, it's quite useful to discriminate between the various sets of untrue beliefs a person might hold.

[Viking]

You can't say that Abu-Bakr-Al-Baghdadi has somehow misunderstood Islam or has a wrong interpretation of it. This is no such thing as a correct understanding of Islam and there is no such thing as a correct interpretation. It's all fiction.

There is no correct interpretation, because Islam has never had a Pope, a Reformation or an Age of Reason.  These three factors contribute to a maturation of religion as an institution;  unified doctrine, populist reforms and movements of thought that separate it from government.

You're just going to have to live with the fact that, while you may consider religion a fiction, the vast majority of the globe does not.  So you're just going to have to wait for religions--and the religious--to sort things out for themselves.

Islam did have a Calif, the Ulema, the Hadith and the Shiites in their various versions each have their own Imam with his own Apostolic succession (from the prophet) each with their own special ability to correctly interpret the Koran. Each Islamic polity certainly did have it's own dogma with it's own correct interpretations and institutions.

The reason Islam never had a pope is because the Calif or Emir was his own pope. Islam has had no squeamishness in persecuting Alawites ,Alewis, Shiites, Sunnis, Ismailis and Ahmadis.

[garbon]

So when will Languish mature and realize no one wins when Viking starts talking about religion?

I think we all know that. It's just that sometimes people engage in irrational counter productive behaviour that leads to bad outcomes.

People should cut that shit out, yo.

[CountDeMoney]

I'm not sure I follow. After all, all the various branches of Christianity have their own interpretations, no?

I really don't see much ecclesiastical variation between, say, Baptist and Methodist and Episcopalian, do you?  They're not calling each other heretics or apostates.

Or is this some sort of plug that those three factors helped craft the correct interpretation that the Catholic Church has today?

I'm talking about the institutionalization and codification of interpretation through the historical stages necessary in turning a church from one that fields an army and lobs off heads into a relatively benevolent aspect of a society.   

And before you and all the Euroweenies with hangups over religion freak the fuck out like they always do, Rome may have a problem with your sex life, but it's not like the local bishop is going to send out the soldiers to arrest you, hold an ecclesiastical trial and burn you at the stake any time soon.