The Islamic State in Iraq and the Levant Megathread

[The Minsky Moment]

Didn't the PFLP have a bunch of Arab Christian militants?

[Admiral Yi]

Sure.  I think that still leaves Arab Christians proportionately much less violent than Arab Muslims.

[Sheilbh]

Sure.  I think that still leaves Arab Christians proportionately much less violent than Arab Muslims.

Based on what though?

[Jacob]

Sure.  I think that still leaves Arab Christians proportionately much less violent than Arab Muslims.

Based on what though?

Careful textual analysis of the available media.

[Malthus]

Sure.  I think that still leaves Arab Christians proportionately much less violent than Arab Muslims.

Based on what though?

Well, I guess the point can be made that in most of the ME they are a minority, so if violence happens it is more liokely to happen *to* them. Lebanon, and places and times when Arab nationalism was more important than sectarianism, are the exceptions.

Kind like how Jews tended to be pretty pacifist, until they aimed for their own nation-state.

[Sheilbh]

Well, I guess the point can be made that in most of the ME they are a minority, so if violence happens it is more liokely to happen *to* them. Lebanon, and places and times when Arab nationalism was more important than sectarianism, are the exceptions.

This is what I wonder though. If you look at the post-war era then non-nationalist conflict's a relatively recent phenomenon.

[Admiral Yi]

The Sunnis are a minority in Iraq, the Shi'ites are a minority in Lebanon, the Khurds are a minority in Turkey, hasn't stopped any of them.

[Malthus]

Well, I guess the point can be made that in most of the ME they are a minority, so if violence happens it is more liokely to happen *to* them. Lebanon, and places and times when Arab nationalism was more important than sectarianism, are the exceptions.

This is what I wonder though. If you look at the post-war era then non-nationalist conflict's a relatively recent phenomenon.

It is impossible, though, to meaningfully seperate out Christian from Muslim in a non-sectarian context.

[Malthus]

The Sunnis are a minority in Iraq, the Shi'ites are a minority in Lebanon, the Khurds are a minority in Turkey, hasn't stopped any of them.

It hasn't stopped the Christians in Lebanon, either. Which is the point being made.

In the other cases, the people are a minority it is true, but one with enough of a concentrated population to make a bid for local autonomy (even mastery in some cases - look at the Alawites in Syria, for example). A minority that is too small, or too scattered, hasn't an opportunity for doing that.

Take the example of Jews. Prior to the 20th century, the notion that ME Jews would pose any sort of threat to non-Jews would have been laughable, because they were a scattered minority. Concentrate them in one place, though, and you get an army of Sieges. 

[Sheilbh]

It is impossible, though, to meaningfully seperate out Christian from Muslim in a non-sectarian context.

Exactly. But most of the modern conflicts in the Arab world have been Arab nationalist in which Christians have participated as fully as Muslims.

If you look at sectarian conflicts like Lebanon then in Lebanon the Christians were as brutal as any other side.

In Syria Christians have formed militias in defence of the regime and senior regime figures are Christian (including the Minister of Defence when the chemical attacks were launched). I'm not sure how you weigh that against the cost paid by ordinary Christians who happen to be in a village that's won by rebels (but, of course, you can flip that argument). The biggest Assad propagandist in the West and Russia is a nun.

They're a minority which does matter and does make their position precarious and they are being 'cleansed' from large swathes of the Middle East. But in sectarian wars where they either have parity, or have a sympathetic sponsor they can join, I'm not convinced Arab Christians have been significantly less bloodthirsty.

[Queequeg]

Well, I guess the point can be made that in most of the ME they are a minority, so if violence happens it is more liokely to happen *to* them. Lebanon, and places and times when Arab nationalism was more important than sectarianism, are the exceptions.

This is what I wonder though. If you look at the post-war era then non-nationalist conflict's a relatively recent phenomenon.

It is impossible, though, to meaningfully seperate out Christian from Muslim in a non-sectarian context.

I don't know if this is true.  Assyrians and Copts are culturally different from their Arab Muslim neighbors even if the key difference is religion.

[Admiral Yi]

It hasn't stopped the Christians in Lebanon, either. Which is the point being made.

That was a different point: that Arab Christians have committed more than zero violence.

The new point is that Christians are a minority, which inhibits their ability/willingness to engage in violence.

[Sheilbh]

The new point is that Christians are a minority, which inhibits their ability/willingness to engage in violence.

But, when they are in such a position - through regime support or concentration - they're just as bloodthirsty as anyone else. So I'm not sure of your proportionate point either.

[Queequeg]

The new point is that Christians are a minority, which inhibits their ability/willingness to engage in violence.

But, when they are in such a position - through regime support or concentration - they're just as bloodthirsty as anyone else. So I'm not sure of your proportionate point either.

A few massacres in 1982 < 1,400 years of systematic oppression, and since the Hamidian Massacres more or less constant threat of extermination, which are frequently acted on.

[Sheilbh]

A few massacres in 1982 < 1,400 years of systematic oppression, and since the Hamidian Massacres more or less constant threat of extermination, which are frequently acted on.

I did specify the post-war era