The Islamic State in Iraq and the Levant Megathread

[Valmy]

Maybe not many of them are members of the Rotary club. 

[Really, that just seems totally random. Why them, particularly?]

Because of their fight against Western Imperialism(tm)

[derspiess]

Still let them fight their own culture war.

I don't see why we should not help out those attempting to civilize their countries. It can't make things any worse for them.

Because it makes them agents for Western Imperialism.  I think that is worse.

Yep.  I get the feeling this pushes a lot of "centrists" towards the Islamist side.  It feels right to want to help out the more liberal-minded folks over there, just like it feels right to some people to feed wild animals in national parks.

[CountDeMoney]

The danger for us Westerners getting involved is already evident in the article.  We are funding some sort of woman's safe place and it is being called 'The American Office' or whatever.

That shit's just one explosives-laden Toyota away from "Sorry, We're Closed!"

[Queequeg]

Article Seventeen:

The Moslem woman has a role no less important than that of the moslem man in the battle of liberation. She is the maker of men. Her role in guiding and educating the new generations is great. The enemies have realised the importance of her role. They consider that if they are able to direct and bring her up they way they wish, far from Islam, they would have won the battle. That is why you find them giving these attempts constant attention through information campaigns, films, and the school curriculum, using for that purpose their lackeys who are infiltrated through Zionist organizations under various names and shapes, such as Freemasons, Rotary Clubs, espionage groups and others, which are all nothing more than cells of subversion and saboteurs. These organizations have ample resources that enable them to play their role in societies for the purpose of achieving the Zionist targets and to deepen the concepts that would serve the enemy. These organizations operate in the absence of Islam and its estrangement among its people. The Islamic peoples should perform their role in confronting the conspiracies of these saboteurs. The day Islam is in control of guiding the affairs of life, these organizations, hostile to humanity and Islam, will be obliterated.

This made me laugh really hard.  Judith Butler got in a lot of hot water for her support for Hamas as a Leftist anti-colonial organization.  This is hilarious. 

[Berkut]

I get what you guys are saying...but I hate the conclusion.

Basically, since radical fuckheads will use western funding to demonize people they are going to demonize anyway, we should not fund or help people doing things like trying to stop female honor murder or genital mutilation, or child rape?

Isn't that basically just giving in to the most radical members of these screwed up cultures?

It is basically saying "Yeah, you got us - we cannot help without empowering you, so we will just not help at all". That seems like surrender to me, and surrender to (from a humanist perspective) the most evil members of the human race.

[Malthus]

Because it makes them agents for Western Imperialism.  I think that is worse.

My opinion is that they are going to say that those helping women out etc. are agents of Western Imperialism whether we actually help them or not.

So might as well do so. 

[derspiess]

I get what you guys are saying...but I hate the conclusion.

Basically, since radical fuckheads will use western funding to demonize people they are going to demonize anyway, we should not fund or help people doing things like trying to stop female honor murder or genital mutilation, or child rape?

Isn't that basically just giving in to the most radical members of these screwed up cultures?

It is basically saying "Yeah, you got us - we cannot help without empowering you, so we will just not help at all". That seems like surrender to me, and surrender to (from a humanist perspective) the most evil members of the human race.

Their cultural transformation and modernization needs to come from within.  We can't force it. 

[Malthus]

I get what you guys are saying...but I hate the conclusion.

Basically, since radical fuckheads will use western funding to demonize people they are going to demonize anyway, we should not fund or help people doing things like trying to stop female honor murder or genital mutilation, or child rape?

Isn't that basically just giving in to the most radical members of these screwed up cultures?

It is basically saying "Yeah, you got us - we cannot help without empowering you, so we will just not help at all". That seems like surrender to me, and surrender to (from a humanist perspective) the most evil members of the human race.

Their cultural transformation and modernization needs to come from within.  We can't force it.

Helping to fund people within that culture doing stuff like women's shelters isn't "force". It is "from within".

[Syt]

This could all have been prevented ....

[Valmy]

Man we should have given the Germans the Middle East.  Would have destroyed their empire at a much lower cost than four years of war.

[Syt]

  There would have been Disziplin and Ordnung!

[Viking]

Dunno if this is the right thread for this - but man, those Afganis have a shitty culture. This story is absolutely horrifying. 

http://www.nytimes.com/2014/07/20/world/asia/struggling-to-keep-afghan-girl-safe-after-a-mullah-is-accused-of-rape.html?hp&action=click&pgtype=Homepage&version=HpSum&module=second-column-region&region=top-news&WT.nav=top-news&_r=0

This is the kind of story that makes shit like the "White man's burden" not seem so fucking racist after all.

At some point can't we just say "You know what? Your fucking culture sucks, and I do NOT have to respect it".

Those caring for the girl said she had been terribly homesick and wanted to return to her family, but no one had the heart to tell her they had been conspiring to kill her.

this is the saddest bit of all, this is evil and there are people who think evil is good.

[Grallon]

This is the kind of story that makes shit like the "White man's burden" not seem so fucking racist after all.

At some point can't we just say "You know what? Your fucking culture sucks, and I do NOT have to respect it".

I've been saying this for years..  Now imagine immigrants from the same barbarian cultures coming in droves in our own countries; imagine the problems in a few years.  And yet when I mention this I get derided by Malthus and others as a racist and a bigot. 



G.

[Valmy]

I am with you on that part at least Grallon.  Don't bring stuff our culture finds evil here man.  If you want to do honor killings and FGM stay at home.

[Berkut]

I get what you guys are saying...but I hate the conclusion.

Basically, since radical fuckheads will use western funding to demonize people they are going to demonize anyway, we should not fund or help people doing things like trying to stop female honor murder or genital mutilation, or child rape?

Isn't that basically just giving in to the most radical members of these screwed up cultures?

It is basically saying "Yeah, you got us - we cannot help without empowering you, so we will just not help at all". That seems like surrender to me, and surrender to (from a humanist perspective) the most evil members of the human race.

Their cultural transformation and modernization needs to come from within.  We can't force it. 

Hmmm. I think you are setting up a false choice. There options are not "force it" and do nothing.

We can influence it, assist it, repress it, divert it, etc., etc. There are a ridiculously huge number of variables that go into cultural perspective, the idea that external forces cannot exert on influence on it is clearly not accurate.

The question is whether (and how) we can most influence it in a positive direction, and at what cost.