The Islamic State in Iraq and the Levant Megathread

[Razgovory]

Sicily is the the big island just southwest of the Italian peninsula.  It's grey on the map.

[DGuller]

Well, hopefully ISIS administration is what Sicily needs to snap out of their medieval mindset that enables mafias to flourish.

[Duque de Bragança]

Well, hopefully ISIS administration is what Sicily needs to snap out of their medieval mindset that enables mafias to flourish.

That or fascism.
All Austria included and not Sicily is indeed hilarious. Turkestan seems included in it though. Crimea as well, but not Kazan (Tatarstan) indeed.

[DGuller]

All Austria included and not Sicily is indeed hilarious. Turkestan seems included in it though. Crimea as well, but not Kazan (Tatarstan) indeed.

I think they're just being realistic there.

[Norgy]

Vienna will fall at last! 

I guess I can tell me islamophobic countrymen to do as Frankie says.

[Syt]

And now that the Caliphate has been proclaimed I know the ideal Grand Vizier.

[Berkut]

Looks like Jaron will be making his move to crown himself Emperor of Trebizond.


Berkut is right.  This was coming since we invaded. Hell, if Saddam had died in office we might be seeing it anyway, except you know, for the massive amounts of lives and treasure we expended exporting democracy ther.e

I would say it was coming since the post-WW1 divvying up of the Middle East that created modern Iraq in the first place.

[Darth Wagtaros]

Maybe.  Better government may have created a sense of 'nationhood' in those states.

[derspiess]

Vienna will fall at last! 

I like how their geographical knowledge seems to get less specific as you move out from the center.

[Baron von Schtinkenbutt]

How are not able to trace these guys if they're posting videos on Youtube?

Because its not that simple?  There are techniques to mask IP addresses.  They are probably using throwaway, possibly stolen, devices for access.  Even if they weren't doing either, all you find out is their ISP.  You might also be able to find the MAC address of the device you used.  You find out fuck-all about where said device is actually located.

[Valmy]

Maybe.  Better government may have created a sense of 'nationhood' in those states.

Better government could have done lots of things in many different places.  It is a difficult commodity to attain though.

Vienna will fall at last! 

I have to say they have bizarre ambitions to conquer all these presently non-Islamic areas while not concerning themselves with places like Bangladesh, Malaysia, and Indonesia.

[Siege]

Illiterate fucks.
Don't even know their own history.
They are just repeating propaganda.

[Berkut]

Maybe.  Better government may have created a sense of 'nationhood' in those states.

I am becoming more and more convinced that the West has this idea that "better government" can precede rational and meaningful national boundaries. I think perhaps that we look at out own societies and governments, our own perceptions on things like the rule of law and importance (or lack therof) to us of things like tribal identities and sectarian distinctions, and think that given "good enough" government, where the lines are drawn on the map really should not matter.

But I suspect that the reality is that it is the other way around - in most places like this, you cannot have "good government" when in fact that government is trying to control groups that simply are not willing to actually work together. You cannot create a national identity because it is not possible (or at least incredibly difficult) to have "good government" when you have national borders that in some cases do not take into account the actual demographic or political realities on the ground.

You end up with one of a couple things, it would seem:

1. Stable, but relatively brutal governments who rule by violence, or
2. Unstable attempts at "coalition" governments that cannot entice or demand the loyalty of those who they must rely on to maintain sovereignity.

In the case of the Middle East, many of the borders are often not just poorly though out from the standpoint of creating states with cohesive identities, in some cases they are very carefully constructed to create intentionally unstable states, like Iraq. Where the goal of the powers setting it up was to make sure that the state could not be stable, and therefore whoever was in power (often a minority) would be reliant on the foreign power to maintain their position.

So I see what you are saying, but I think history has shown that the idea that "good government" can come BEFORE rational boundaries has never really worked. We want it to work because the alternative is either

A) Incredibly hard politically (creating rational states via a political process). Can anyone imagine the country of Kurdistan coming into existence via a nice committee meeting between Iraq, Turkey, and the Kurds? No way.
B) Extreme violence. Which is what we are getting now.

[DGuller]

I don't recall the details, but I think Europeans had a disagreement or two about national identities themselves before stable liberal governments came about.

[Valmy]

I don't recall the details, but I think Europeans had a disagreement or two about national identities themselves before stable liberal governments came about.

Yeah...did any violence result?  I don't recall.