The Islamic State in Iraq and the Levant Megathread

[Viking]

Yeah and it was what Mousavi meant saying Iran was no longer an Islamic Republic, just a Republic.

I see your statement by a losing presidential candidate (however stole that election was) and raise you Clerics in House Arrest. The entire point of the problem is that the men with guns disagree with Mousavi and the imprisoned Clerics.

[Razgovory]

Theocracy, no.  Dictatorship, sure why not.

Yes, we know about your views on the US, but what about Iraq?

[derspiess]

Theocracy, no.  Dictatorship, sure why not.

Yes, we know about your views on the US, but what about Iraq?

OH MAN  

[Valmy]

Spicey and an American Theocracy eh?  The First United Methodist Supreme Council will lead us all with Christ's guidance.  The government will be funded by bake sales as God intended.

[Solmyr]

The problem is that the Iranian constitution is based on rather peculiar interpretation of Shi'ite theology, such that many of the highest ranking Iranian ayatollahs never fully endorsed it,

What are the differences? I'm genuinely curious.

[CountDeMoney]

Spicey and an American Theocracy eh?  The First United Methodist Supreme Council will lead us all with Christ's guidance.  The government will be funded by bake sales as God intended.

Only as long as he promises two fetuses in every pot and hidden in every garage.

[Viking]

The problem is that the Iranian constitution is based on rather peculiar interpretation of Shi'ite theology, such that many of the highest ranking Iranian ayatollahs never fully endorsed it,

What are the differences? I'm genuinely curious.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guardianship_of_the_Islamic_Jurists

Basically they claim the rights and obligations of the occulted Imam. Their status as Islamic  Juristprudents with the power of interpretation means they also claim the right to rule based on the inability of the people to understand the true interpretation.

This is actually a bit hard to explain because no equivalent status exists in christianity. Its as if the entire catholic church went awol for 1400 years and for the bulk of that period the catholics just waited for it to return, then, all of a sudden a clique of fanatics show up and claim to speak for the last pope. This would not be approved by the guys who had been waiting all those years.

It's important here to remind people of the main difference between Shiite and Sunni Islam. Both sects agree that there was a succession of imamhood (the right to interpret the koran) in the 4 rightly guided caliphs. After the death of Imam Ali (the 4th and last rightly guided caliph) the split happened. Sunnis (the word means tradition) argued that, now that there was no rightly guided caliph true islam could only be known by knowing and continuing the traditions of the prophet, so sunni juristprudence consisted of trying to figure out what the prophet might have said about gameboys and internet and space travel etc. In the many various sects of shiite islam they mostly argue that succession went to some specific person (usually the leader of that tribe making the claim). The Iranian and Iraqi shiites are 12er Shiites. Meaning they follow a specific line of succession which ends with the 12th Imam who was hidden (tossed down a well) and will (messiah like) return. In a sense they have been pseudo sunnis only they add imams 5-12 to the initial 4 the sunnis follow.

What Khomeini did that was so brazen was to say that he wasn't merely expressing his interpretation but rather that he was the source of true interpretation. Since he and his successors had the guns nobody has gone so far as to point out that he was a blasphemer. The reason Khamenei is the guy in charge is that Khomeini's expected successors had qualms about this but were purged by they men with guns who didn't want to lose their power.

It's really more complicated than this, but these are the highlights. And, don't go calling them pseudo sunnis, that will result in blood. 

[The Minsky Moment]

At its most simple, Shi'a clergy gain prestige as models for emulation.  The greater their learning and the more people that follow their teaching and view them as models, the greater their prestige.  So not surprisingly, the clergy with the most regard and prestige can have a great deal of influence on the people.  But that influence, though significant, is (traditionally) informal - the power of persuasion or the bully pulpit.  Taking on formal political power is a line that Shi'a clergy traditionally did not cross.    Some of the opponents of the Shah regime in the 60s and 70s however developed a radical, revolutionary theology of "rule by the jurists" where formal political power would be reposted in the clergy.  Khomeini was the highest profile ayatollah that promoted that view.  Some joined him.  Others did not oppose him but did not themselves wish to assume a more formal political role.  And others adhered to the traditional view and rejected the new politicalized theology.

[Queequeg]

IDK.  I mean, the 16th Century Safavid Shahdom was for some time basically just a religious order with a title that was inherited.  I think Shi'ite polities have traditionally been theocratic even by the standards of Islamic history. 

[jimmy olsen]

ISIL just seized an old chemical weapons plant

http://online.wsj.com/articles/sunni-extremists-in-iraq-occupy-saddams-chemical-weapons-facility-1403190600

[Ed Anger]

Thank you, news from days ago.

[The Minsky Moment]

IDK.  I mean, the 16th Century Safavid Shahdom was for some time basically just a religious order with a title that was inherited.  I think Shi'ite polities have traditionally been theocratic even by the standards of Islamic history.

Safavids were Sufi in origin.  The later Shahs would turn against the order and move to suppress it.  And the Safavids were deposed almost 300 years ago.  No one ever confused the Qajars as theocrats.

[derspiess]

http://www.ibtimes.co.uk/isis-hoodies-t-shirts-sale-online-islamist-brand-goes-global-1453715

Badass.

[Syt]

No Lon Asgeles hoodies?

[derspiess]

Well now that you mention it, to balance things out militia groups in the US ought to wear misspelled ISIS gear.