The Islamic State in Iraq and the Levant Megathread

[Valmy]

seriously zero coverage of this in Norway, it seems I am wondering if a war happens if the USA isn't there to get blamed for it?

Maybe the press does not want to increase Islamophobia, the fact that these guys will murder thousands of Muslims is beside the point.  But seriously you can easily blame the US for this if you want.

[Tamas]

seriously zero coverage of this in Norway, it seems I am wondering if a war happens if the USA isn't there to get blamed for it?

Oh it's the second story on the BBC behind another round of interminable navel gazing about 'British values'

It should be the leading story everywhere. I think it's quite important.

Yeah I thought this was a major thing, but nobody gives a fuck since there are no Zionist USAians there to blame anymore.

[Sheilbh]

Yeah I thought this was a major thing, but nobody gives a fuck since there are no Zionist USAians there to blame anymore.

But we a government hasn't tried to define 'British values' in at least 5 years. We've got days of articles explaining what they are and other articles explaining how the entire idea of 'British values' is unbritish.

And there's the World Cup to interrupt it too.

[Ed Anger]

Yeah I thought this was a major thing, but nobody gives a fuck since there are no Zionist USAians there to blame anymore.

But we a government hasn't tried to define 'British values' in at least 5 years. We've got days of articles explaining what they are and other articles explaining how the entire idea of 'British values' is unbritish.

And there's the World Cup to interrupt it too.

This over the Birmingham schools thing? I enjoyed the schoolkid slagging off the islamics in his school on the BBC. I assume they will find him in pieces floating in a river soon.

[Sheilbh]

This over the Birmingham schools thing? I enjoyed the schoolkid slagging off the islamics in his school on the BBC. I assume they will find him in pieces floating in a river soon.

Yeah. The government want every school to start teaching 'British values'. Which I think was first proposed under Blair and then Brown, so it was Cameron's turn

[Valmy]

Yeah. The government want every school to start teaching 'British values'. Which I think was first proposed under Blair and then Brown, so it was Cameron's turn

Lesson 1: Haggis Appreciation

[sbr]

We need a giant air conditioned dome over the US.

Can we at least have a retractable roof?

[KRonn]

Since he's been so heavy handed in dealing with the Sunnis and opposing their part in the government aren't al Maliki's chickens coming home to roost?  It seems he helped cause some of this with Sunnis taking part, partly anyway because the extremists are a thing of their own and would be causing this kind of trouble on their own.

[PJL]

Can't Iran do something? Honestly, it's getting to the point where it might not be so bad if Iran made Iraq & Syria their puppet states. At least we know they're semi-concerned with running a viable state, despite their usual anti-Western rhetoric. As long as we can contain their nuclear ambitions, I can't see it being too bad. Hell, I think even Israel would probably accept it as being the lesser of the two evils.

On a wider scale, I think the West should support peaceful demonstrations against authoritarian and dictatorial governments, but support the rule of law in said countries if it descends into the opposition targeting the security forces / government buildings etc.

[KRonn]

Yeah I thought this was a major thing, but nobody gives a fuck since there are no Zionist USAians there to blame anymore.

But we a government hasn't tried to define 'British values' in at least 5 years. We've got days of articles explaining what they are and other articles explaining how the entire idea of 'British values' is unbritish.

And there's the World Cup to interrupt it too.

I would think it quite un-British to discuss the un-Britishness of discussing British values!   

[Viking]

Yeah I thought this was a major thing, but nobody gives a fuck since there are no Zionist USAians there to blame anymore.

But we a government hasn't tried to define 'British values' in at least 5 years. We've got days of articles explaining what they are and other articles explaining how the entire idea of 'British values' is unbritish.

And there's the World Cup to interrupt it too.

I would think it quite un-British to discuss the un-Britishness of discussing British values!   

It's hard to state values recognizable as british that don't specifially exclude fag hating, atheist hating and cartoon insulted muslims. If the Satanic Verses are insulting to all muslims then muslims can't have british values.

[Sheilbh]

It's hard to state values recognizable as british that don't specifially exclude fag hating, atheist hating and cartoon insulted muslims. If the Satanic Verses are insulting to all muslims then muslims can't have british values.

We should probably move this to another thread.

But my view is we're not France or America and there's not much point pretending we are. Which is why we never resolve this debate and we have it every few years - whether because of Islamist extremists in school or insecure Scottish Prime Ministers.

[Berkut]

Inevitably there's lots of rumours around. Two of the most striking are that this was lead by ex-members of the Iraqi Army (1st Mosul) and that they're about to announce Izzat al-Duri (the king of clubs) as the 'governor' of Iraq. He was reported, by Petraeus, as having been based in Syria so it wouldn't be a massive surprise.

Also worrying is that apparently US-trained security forces fled more or less as soon as the battle began, so there now are calls for the Kurds to try and re-take the city. There are also reports that ISIS have managed to seize fighter jets and helicopters that were in Mosul airport.

Well that's shocking.  Very few of the guys who allied with us in Iraq had any determination or desire to fight for the cause.  While our enemies were willing to sacrifice everything.  The people are more willing to fight and die for murderous theologies than anything else.  With that calculus the victory of the extremists is inevitable.

WEll, I think Iraq shows that that is not actually true - you can kill them fast enough that they eventually decide to go somewhere else.

The problem in Iraq was not that we couldn't kill radicals effectively enough to dissuade them, it is that even when we did Iraq did not, does not, and has not had a strong enough national identity to actually function even if we gave them the space to do so had there been the fundamental structure there to begin with.

So other radical groups just show up to take advantage.

But I very much disagree with the basic premise that you cannot beat radicals. You can, and we have. It just doesn't help to smash radical group A if radical group B is just going to show up later because the government itself cannot maintain sovereignty over the state.

[Sheilbh]

The solution in Iraq wasn't based on killing radicals but, to use Mao's analogy, draining the lake. Anbar awakening and engaging with the Sunni was absolutely key. The people who initially supported the Sunni insurgency became supporters of the US presence and strengthened by it, now they've become radicals again. Similarly the Shia initially supported the US presence as it removed Saddam and fought the Sunnis but during the Awakening especially were very happy to see the US leave.

Trouble is, as Kronn said, once the US left the Sunni were fucked and Maliki has, as always, pursued a very authoritarian, sectarian agenda. ISIS initially had to fight Awakening groups, now they're finding allies in the same Sheikhs previously friendly with the US because they're now the best bet to fight/resist Shia forces.

I think your view on the problem in Iraq is also a bit rosy. There were problems with Iraq to do with sectarianism and ethnic conflicts. But I remember the people who raised them being dismissed as Arabists before the war and I don't think anyone in the US or UK governments cared or paid enough attention to them. I also think we failed until 2006 to actually provide security so a sectarian civil war started at precisely the time when there was an opportunity for 'nation building' (I remember Hans saying how things were improving because the number of soldiers dying was declining while it was never about us - they were killing each other which was the problem). The failure to build a state is partly our fault. By the time we provided the level of security necessary (after the surge) there'd already been two years of massacres and outrages committed by radicals on either side which made the chances of success in building a state very small.

[Sheilbh]

Also reports of 2-3000 radical Islamist prisoners in Mosul's prisons, who've now been freed.

The traffic jam of people trying to get the fuck out:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-27778112