The Islamic State in Iraq and the Levant Megathread

Started by Tamas, June 10, 2014, 07:37:01 AM

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Sheilbh

Quote from: jimmy olsen on June 10, 2014, 08:30:33 AM
If the Kurds can't kick them out, the Iranians will help the Shia and they would be able to hold against them.
They don't need to hold it.
Let's bomb Russia!

Berkut

Being a super power who is both

A) Interested in meddling and trying to make things better, while
B) Being unwilling to just use our power directly to force change

is a royal pain in the ass. Especially when your allies are largely categorically unwilling to actually do the things they promise to help.

It really does make me think the US should do as everyone seems to want us to do, and just ditch A, since we certainly are not and should not be willing to change B.

So fuck it. Everyone seems to hate the shitty job we are doing as world policemen, and NATO refuses to do the things they promise to help, so let someone else do it. I think Russia is interested in the position.
"If you think this has a happy ending, then you haven't been paying attention."

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Ed Anger

A good bout of American isolationism will do both the US and the world some good.
Stay Alive...Let the Man Drive

derspiess

Quote from: garbon on June 10, 2014, 07:48:26 AM
Quote from: Tamas on June 10, 2014, 07:44:09 AM
along with America's reputation and general goodwill which accumulated after 9/11.

Until the next reason to hate us happened.

Pretty much, yeah.
"If you can play a guitar and harmonica at the same time, like Bob Dylan or Neil Young, you're a genius. But make that extra bit of effort and strap some cymbals to your knees, suddenly people want to get the hell away from you."  --Rich Hall

Sheilbh

Quote from: garbon on June 10, 2014, 07:48:26 AM
Quote from: Tamas on June 10, 2014, 07:44:09 AM
along with America's reputation and general goodwill which accumulated after 9/11.

Until the next reason to hate us happened.
Also, what't the point of goodwill if you don't spend it? Iraq was a mistake but I think losing goodwill's a poor argument against it.
Let's bomb Russia!

mongers

Quote from: Ed Anger on June 10, 2014, 08:43:41 AM
A good bout of American isolationism will do both the US and the world some good.

This.
"We have it in our power to begin the world over again"

Valmy

Quote from: Sheilbh on June 10, 2014, 08:24:24 AM
Inevitably there's lots of rumours around. Two of the most striking are that this was lead by ex-members of the Iraqi Army (1st Mosul) and that they're about to announce Izzat al-Duri (the king of clubs) as the 'governor' of Iraq. He was reported, by Petraeus, as having been based in Syria so it wouldn't be a massive surprise.

Also worrying is that apparently US-trained security forces fled more or less as soon as the battle began, so there now are calls for the Kurds to try and re-take the city. There are also reports that ISIS have managed to seize fighter jets and helicopters that were in Mosul airport.

Well that's shocking.  Very few of the guys who allied with us in Iraq had any determination or desire to fight for the cause.  While our enemies were willing to sacrifice everything.  The people are more willing to fight and die for murderous theologies than anything else.  With that calculus the victory of the extremists is inevitable.
Quote"This is a Russian warship. I propose you lay down arms and surrender to avoid bloodshed & unnecessary victims. Otherwise, you'll be bombed."

Zmiinyi defenders: "Russian warship, go fuck yourself."

garbon

Quote from: Berkut on June 10, 2014, 08:39:51 AM
Being a super power who is both

A) Interested in meddling and trying to make things better, while
B) Being unwilling to just use our power directly to force change

is a royal pain in the ass. Especially when your allies are largely categorically unwilling to actually do the things they promise to help.

It really does make me think the US should do as everyone seems to want us to do, and just ditch A, since we certainly are not and should not be willing to change B.

So fuck it. Everyone seems to hate the shitty job we are doing as world policemen, and NATO refuses to do the things they promise to help, so let someone else do it. I think Russia is interested in the position.

I draw the opposite conclusion. Haters going to hate, so fuck 'em. Let's keep doing what we think best*.


(*within reason as certainly we should still be open to other information and make decisions after due consideration.)
"I've never been quite sure what the point of a eunuch is, if truth be told. It seems to me they're only men with the useful bits cut off."
I drank because I wanted to drown my sorrows, but now the damned things have learned to swim.

garbon

Quote from: Sheilbh on June 10, 2014, 08:48:10 AM
Quote from: garbon on June 10, 2014, 07:48:26 AM
Quote from: Tamas on June 10, 2014, 07:44:09 AM
along with America's reputation and general goodwill which accumulated after 9/11.

Until the next reason to hate us happened.
Also, what't the point of goodwill if you don't spend it? Iraq was a mistake but I think losing goodwill's a poor argument against it.

Agreed on both counts.
"I've never been quite sure what the point of a eunuch is, if truth be told. It seems to me they're only men with the useful bits cut off."
I drank because I wanted to drown my sorrows, but now the damned things have learned to swim.

Valmy

Quote from: mongers on June 10, 2014, 08:48:58 AM
Quote from: Ed Anger on June 10, 2014, 08:43:41 AM
A good bout of American isolationism will do both the US and the world some good.

This.

We'll see.  Once the US goes isolationist it takes a massive disaster to break us out of it.
Quote"This is a Russian warship. I propose you lay down arms and surrender to avoid bloodshed & unnecessary victims. Otherwise, you'll be bombed."

Zmiinyi defenders: "Russian warship, go fuck yourself."

Viking

seriously zero coverage of this in Norway, it seems I am wondering if a war happens if the USA isn't there to get blamed for it?
First Maxim - "There are only two amounts, too few and enough."
First Corollary - "You cannot have too many soldiers, only too few supplies."
Second Maxim - "Be willing to exchange a bad idea for a good one."
Second Corollary - "You can only be wrong or agree with me."

A terrorist which starts a slaughter quoting Locke, Burke and Mill has completely missed the point.
The fact remains that the only person or group to applaud the Norway massacre are random Islamists.

Sheilbh

Quote from: garbon on June 10, 2014, 08:51:21 AM
I draw the opposite conclusion. Haters going to hate, so fuck 'em. Let's keep doing what we think best*.


(*within reason as certainly we should still be open to other information and make decisions after due consideration.)
I agree. But I don't necessarily totally agree with A or B.
Let's bomb Russia!

Tamas

Quote from: mongers on June 10, 2014, 08:48:58 AM
Quote from: Ed Anger on June 10, 2014, 08:43:41 AM
A good bout of American isolationism will do both the US and the world some good.

This.

Yeah. Not in the way you would hope it, though. Massive increase in defense spending for the UK and other NATO members to keep Russia and possibly China honest, not to mention all the probing and poking that would start in the Balkan states.

Sheilbh

Quote from: Viking on June 10, 2014, 08:54:14 AM
seriously zero coverage of this in Norway, it seems I am wondering if a war happens if the USA isn't there to get blamed for it?
Oh it's the second story on the BBC behind another round of interminable navel gazing about 'British values' :bleeding:

It should be the leading story everywhere. I think it's quite important.
Let's bomb Russia!

Ed Anger

We need a giant air conditioned dome over the US.
Stay Alive...Let the Man Drive