Someone Explain Spanish to Me

[derspiess]

I've heard Rioplateense has a lot of Italian influences,

It does, but in a weird sort of way.  As I understand it, there isn't a lot of direct Italian influence, per se.  You had the Cocoliche Italian-Spanish pidgin that swirled around on its own for a while amongst the poor Italian immigrants, sort of at the same time the lower class Lunfardo dialect came about.  It seems that Cocoliche and Lunfardo then blended together somewhat before being absorbed into the general Argentine/Uruguayan dialect.

So there's Italian influence for sure, but in a mutated form rather than directly incorporating Italian phrases or terms.  Their manner of expression, the rhythm with which they speak, and the weird hand gestures seem to have made it through in purer form.

FWIW, when the New York Times published an article that demonstrated a lot of Italian hand gestures, the Argies I showed them to recognized almost all of them.

[derspiess]

A funny thing about Latin American Spanish in comparison with Spain's Spanish is that it is usually much more polite and soft spoken. One thing many Latin American inmigrants mention when they arrive to Spain is how foul mouthed everyone is, which is quite a shock to them. 

No way you outdo the Argies in that department.

edit: Or it may just be that my wife's family & friends are so foul-mouthed     Around the house just about every 30 seconds you hear someone say "pincha pelotas!", "carajo", "la puta madre", etc.

[The Larch]

A funny thing about Latin American Spanish in comparison with Spain's Spanish is that it is usually much more polite and soft spoken. One thing many Latin American inmigrants mention when they arrive to Spain is how foul mouthed everyone is, which is quite a shock to them. 

No way you outdo the Argies in that department.

edit: Or it may just be that my wife's family & friends are so foul-mouthed     Around the house just about every 30 seconds you hear someone say "pincha pelotas!", "carajo", "la puta madre", etc.

I now have flashbacks to that clip of the old River Plate fan watching the game in which they were relegated. 

And yes, we curse more than Argentinians. Saying joder every two or three words is second nature to us. Argentinian swearwords tend to be more elaborate, though.

[Queequeg]

Actually it would be neat to look at what European dialects influenced the different parts of the ex-Colonies.  I'd guess Extremaduran and Andalusian off of the ties to Seville but it could be anything.

I doubt there are many connections, my guess is that, where there were sizeable native populations, like Mexico and Perú, their influence in the Spanish spoken there would be greater that any brand of Spanish the settlers may have brought.

Edit: Actually, the only region of Spain whose accent is somehow similar to an American equivalent would be the Canaries, whose accent has slightly Caribbean overtones. A Venezuelan or Dominican sounds somehow similar to a Canarian.

Probably because of the presence of African slaves and that the Canaries were kind of the blueprint of the colonization of the Americas, similar to how the American South was built upon a Caribbean model by people form the Caribs. 

[celedhring]

The thing about South-American Spanish sounding more "polite" to us Spaniards is mainly because of voseo (usage of third person instead of second person). This is considered formal usage in Spain-Spanish and thus sounds more polite to us. They can bomb you with tons of profanity, but hey, they will be calling you "usted" while they do it.

[Queequeg]

I've heard Rioplateense has a lot of Italian influences,

It does, but in a weird sort of way.  As I understand it, there isn't a lot of direct Italian influence, per se.  You had the Cocoliche Italian-Spanish pidgin that swirled around on its own for a while amongst the poor Italian immigrants, sort of at the same time the lower class Lunfardo dialect came about.  It seems that Cocoliche and Lunfardo then blended together somewhat before being absorbed into the general Argentine/Uruguayan dialect.

So there's Italian influence for sure, but in a mutated form rather than directly incorporating Italian phrases or terms.  Their manner of expression, the rhythm with which they speak, and the weird hand gestures seem to have made it through in purer form.

FWIW, when the New York Times published an article that demonstrated a lot of Italian hand gestures, the Argies I showed them to recognized almost all of them.

This makes a lot of sense.  The same thing is really true of Italian or Asian Americans.  Even if they are 5th generation and mixed, you can still feel or hear traces of it.  I have a friend who is half-Japanese (her mother) and she has a really, really distinctively "Japanese girl laugh", and you can tell very quickly that her English is Asian American.  Same with Italian Americans-they gesticulate a lot more, and more aggressively, than us pure Yankees. 

Though, I love how completely ignorant even Italian-born Italian Americans are of Italy.  My barber is Italian born, and we started talking about Italy, and he insisted that his city, Campobasso, was close to Sicily.  I said "wait, isn't it right across from Naples?", and he said yes, and that that was right next to Sicily.  I was a bit drunk (they get $2 craft beers from a local brewery), but still not stupid enough to argue about the geography of his home country while he had a knife at my throat. 

[derspiess]

Though, I love how completely ignorant even Italian-born Italian Americans are of Italy.  My barber is Italian born, and we started talking about Italy, and he insisted that his city, Campobasso, was close to Sicily.  I said "wait, isn't it right across from Naples?", and he said yes, and that that was right next to Sicily.  I was a bit drunk (they get $2 craft beers from a local brewery), but still not stupid enough to argue about the geography of his home country while he had a knife at my throat. 

Argentines are kind of weird about their Italian lineage (which obviously varies by family, but some surnames are unmistakable).  You almost get the impression they'd rather keep it hidden.

[derspiess]

The thing about South-American Spanish sounding more "polite" to us Spaniards is mainly because of voseo (usage of third person instead of second person). This is considered formal usage in Spain-Spanish and thus sounds more polite to us. They can bomb you with tons of profanity, but hey, they will be calling you "usted" while they do it.

Weird, that was sort of my impression when first started seeing/hearing voseo so much.  I never took any French, but I knew vous was the formal "you" so I just sort of associated vos with that.

I was disappointed to find out they didn't use vosotros.  In both high school and college we were always forced to learn it when conjugating verbs, so it felt like a waste to never be able to use it in conversation.

Anyway, I tried for the longest time to avoid voseo when speaking since IMO the best way to improve is to try to focus on a single dialect, but after a while it sort of flowed.  So now I'll arbitrarily shift between tú and vos regardless of whether I'm speaking with an Argie or Mexican or whatever.  I'm more conscious about usage of "che", but that's because I usually employ that when mocking an Argie.

[mongers]

It's a language spoken in Spain and 'dialects' of it in both Latin and Central Americas, as well as isolated pockets in Africa and Asia.

[Valmy]

Probably because of the presence of African slaves and that the Canaries were kind of the blueprint of the colonization of the Americas, similar to how the American South was built upon a Caribbean model by people form the Caribs. 

Why did you bring up the American South?  That seems like it weakens your point.

[Queequeg]

Probably because of the presence of African slaves and that the Canaries were kind of the blueprint of the colonization of the Americas, similes to how the American South was built upon a Caribbean model by people form the Caribs. 

Why did you bring up the American South?  That seems like it weakens your point.

Deep, plantation South has a real Carribean influence. Look at South Carolina.

[Ideologue]

Okay.  Give me a minute.

[jimmy olsen]

A funny thing about Latin American Spanish in comparison with Spain's Spanish is that it is usually much more polite and soft spoken. One thing many Latin American inmigrants mention when they arrive to Spain is how foul mouthed everyone is, which is quite a shock to them. 

Probably because Latin America is a much more violent society. You insult someone's mother there and you might get shot.

EDIT: I believe that Disney does two Spanish dubs for their movies. One in Castilian, one labeled Latin American. Not sure which dialect they use for that, I assume Mexican though simply because they have by far the largest population.

[derspiess]

Glad we finally got the Spanish language expert in here.

[Ed Anger]

Glad we finally got the Spanish language expert in here.

Grammar errors in multiple languages.