UKIP poster boy is a racist immigrant, film at 11

[Tamas]

The article reported Merkel's response to the reported plans Cameron's coming up with. It's all a bit distant.

Welfare as 'lifestyle choice', you really should consider the Tories/UKIP

I am not saying its the majority, but isn't kind of a known thing for example that young girls in a poor environment and no ambition choose to give birth ASAP to rake in the benefits. Plus I consider things like you mentioned about people living in council housing despite being well off, part of this.

Helping those who are in a bad spell is important (although one could argue that with low enough taxes charities could take care of that), but if welfare is a rational alternative to low-paying jobs, then something is being done wrong.

[Iormlund]

It is welfare which is about hurting people. It is hurting those who have to finance it for people who have made it a lifestyle choice to live on it.

That line of thought is something I don't really understand. Outside of some fringe groups (Roma), my experience is that people want to be employed. During the happy early 2000s male unemployment over here was virtually zero (~3%). Now it's over 20% but I doubt this is indicative of potential workers somehow getting lazier in the last ten years.

[Tamas]

It is welfare which is about hurting people. It is hurting those who have to finance it for people who have made it a lifestyle choice to live on it.

That line of thought is something I don't really understand. Outside of some fringe groups (Roma), my experience is that people want to be employed. During the happy early 2000s male unemployment over here was virtually zero (~3%). Now it's over 20% but I doubt this is indicative of potential workers somehow getting lazier in the last ten years.

Well, it is not THE problem with the welfare state, for sure. (The bigger issue is that often a lot of the GDP is redistributed in an inefficient fashion, ie. taken away from those who produce it, and then spent on whatever). But it does seem like some countries created a situation where the poor and uneducated is in a situation where it just doesn't make the least bit of sense for them to try and do the hard climb out of their poverty, when there is the alternative of popping out some kids and maybe supplement that with whatever jobs they can come across.

That, I consider a toxic incentive that should be eliminated. It can also lead to a chain reaction bad for the economy, like trying to combat this with the raising of the minimum wage which makes prices higher and further removes the chance of employment from the unskilled.

Some of the stories I have heard from Britons, or read here (in regards to council housing for example) seems to show that a lot of the welfare system here can be used/abused to make life easier for people who could make it on their own (even if in a very modest way). That should never be the case, because it is highly unfair to:
-those who actually finance those benefits. They lose it in tax to be payed, instead of being able to spend/invest on their own
-those who actually need welfare, because there are less resources available to help them

[Josquius]

Even until the 90s to qualify as a worker you had to have a job offer in the other country. It also didn't include dependants or non-working, non-EEA citizens.

Edit: And the Maastricht idea of common European citizenship was a pretty huge shift too.

I think a much bigger change than any actual legal changes that have occurred is in the shrinking of the continent. With ryan air and the like and it being a casual 2 hour plane ride taken on a whim to most of the continent....people are just more open to moving abroad these days.

So when UKIP talks about curbing welfare to combat immigration (IIRC they do that), its total BS.

I do agree with curbing welfare, and that WILL ease up on the immigration thing, as Brits will be forced, to, you know, take up jobs.

Yes, because so many Brits don't want jobs and unemployment is purely down to the wonderful £50 a week benefit payments that allow a man to live like a king on aldi own brand baked beans on toast.

We need bigger and smarter benefits. Not less. If you're not scrambling around trying to get enough pennies to feed your kids for the week then you're probably going to be more inclined to spend £400 a month on train tickets to job interviews. Not to mention your performance at the interviews.

I am not saying its the majority, but isn't kind of a known thing for example that young girls in a poor environment and no ambition choose to give birth ASAP to rake in the benefits.

Born out of a poor 15 year old's image of "£100 a month? Wow, you must be a millionaire!", not any genuine profitability in doing that.

Thats unusual. I was actually referring to yougov polls, if you look back it was quite consistently around 10%. Europe seems to have really blown up in recent months.

But immigration has been a big issue for a long time now and that's equated with the EU in most people's minds.

Somewhat. Not entirely though. Much bigger concerns with immigration IMO are asylum seekers, chain migration from Pakistan and the like.

[Tamas]

Yeah but you would have liked the coal mines to be kept open on taxpayers money so I will take your opinion with a pinch of salt

[Josquius]

Yeah but you would have liked the coal mines to be kept open on taxpayers money so I will take your opinion with a pinch of salt

And you would oppose that on principal even if it saves the taxpayers money so...

[Jacob]

Yeah but you would have liked the coal mines to be kept open on taxpayers money so I will take your opinion with a pinch of salt

While Tyr's views definitely require some salt, your opinions justify massive gov't spending to keep salt mines in operation to deliver the necessary salt

[derspiess]

Yeah but you would have liked the coal mines to be kept open on taxpayers money so I will take your opinion with a pinch of salt

Try coal dust.

[garbon]

Yeah but you would have liked the coal mines to be kept open on taxpayers money so I will take your opinion with a pinch of salt

And you would oppose that on principal even if it saves the taxpayers money so...

[Admiral Yi]

And you would oppose that on principal even if it saves the taxpayers money so...

You've alluded to this before, that closing Teh Coal Mines was a net loss.  Would you care to substantiate this claim?

[Razgovory]

So when UKIP talks about curbing welfare to combat immigration (IIRC they do that), its total BS.

I do agree with curbing welfare, and that WILL ease up on the immigration thing, as Brits will be forced, to, you know, take up jobs.

Well that's the point of curbing welfare, to hurt people you don't like.  They want to hurt immigrants, you want to hurt lazy brits.  Same thing.

It is welfare which is about hurting people. It is hurting those who have to finance it for people who have made it a lifestyle choice to live on it.

Yeah, you can tell yourself that, but it's not true.

[Josquius]

You've alluded to this before, that closing Teh Coal Mines was a net loss.  Would you care to substantiate this claim?

£500 million in subsidies that allow the miners to earn a decent wage and support the economy of broad swathes of the country vs. £500 million in unemployment benefits to provide the miners with just barely enough to survive and knock out the cornerstone of the economy of broad swathes of the country.

[Admiral Yi]

£500 million in subsidies that allow the miners to earn a decent wage and support the economy of broad swathes of the country vs. £500 million in unemployment benefits to provide the miners with just barely enough to survive and knock out the cornerstone of the economy of broad swathes of the country.

Are those actual numbers, or did you make them up?

[Tamas]

You've alluded to this before, that closing Teh Coal Mines was a net loss.  Would you care to substantiate this claim?

£500 million in subsidies that allow the miners to earn a decent wage and support the economy of broad swathes of the country vs. £500 million in unemployment benefits to provide the miners with just barely enough to survive and knock out the cornerstone of the economy of broad swathes of the country.

You realise that the practice you suggest is what in large part responsible for the collapse of the eastern bloc's economy in the 80s, right?

[Tamas]

So when UKIP talks about curbing welfare to combat immigration (IIRC they do that), its total BS.

I do agree with curbing welfare, and that WILL ease up on the immigration thing, as Brits will be forced, to, you know, take up jobs.

Well that's the point of curbing welfare, to hurt people you don't like.  They want to hurt immigrants, you want to hurt lazy brits.  Same thing.

It is welfare which is about hurting people. It is hurting those who have to finance it for people who have made it a lifestyle choice to live on it.

Yeah, you can tell yourself that, but it's not true.

Spend some years working in the private sector, then come back and let me know what you think.